harborshore | on language fail and accountability

Entry tags:

fail,
sexism

on language fail and accountability

Look. I've been seeing an argument made in a lot of places about the recent (and the not-so-recent) language fail in bandom, and I've been talking about it in a number of other people's journals, and I'm just—

It's not hard not to use slurs. It's not. That's not about policing language, that's a bare minimum of decency. Seriously. To imply that it's too high of a standard to hold MCR to is frankly insulting to them. It's not about expecting them to be super feminist. It's about not using harmful words that are more or less widely acknowledged as such (the fact that transphobic words are less well-known is a serious problem, but it doesn't mean that the fact that the word is hugely problematic is any less so because there's a chance they previously didn't know). Can we not imply or flat-out say that men are unable to do this? Particularly not dudes who previously have shown themselves as somewhat aware of problematic things in the scene?

And yeah, Z's recent interview was also hugely problematic. Of course it was. It's so emblematic of the way women are taught that they have to be the right kind of woman to make it, which I imagine is amplified by what is a very sexist music scene, and it makes me so goddamn sad to see it here too. Dammit, Z. I've emailed The Like pointing out that the way to have a productive discussion about issues like "women in music," which, it sounded like some of the interview was about that, is really really not to lash out at other female musicians for the way they dress, using a slur while doing so. That's harsh and harmful and I'm not down with that.

But fandom, fandom, if you're going to hold Z accountable for that (and I'm really not telling you not to!), then please refrain from making excuses for the boys. I'm tired of seeing Vicky-T yelled at every time she does anything at all, whereas Gabe is regularly offensive (yes, I find him endearing too, but seriously) and no one really talks about it, or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before, like somehow he doesn't make his own decisions about what he says or how he markets his album. Or anything. Everyone should be held accountable, otherwise you're judging a woman a million times more harshly than you're judging the men, and that's not really feminist either, hmm? The scene can be such a sexist place, but we have to talk about the fact that it is, HOW it is sexist, and what can be done about it, or nothing will ever change. It doesn't mean you can't continue to love your favorites--after all, I still very much love The Like--it just means that sometimes we have to talk about the fact that they're not perfect.

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&you;

Yes, absolutely. Thinking about the fact that society works like that almost physically hurts, you know? And it makes you flinch away from things you like, and that hurts too. But I think (maybe) what can actually help is talking, because if we make it more clear that the issues are big, if we pair accountability with awareness of larger patterns, then maybe it'll be a little easier to have the conversation without it being quite as hurtful. Possibly. I'm not sure I'm making sense.

*hugs*

Mostly not talking about it, to be fair, but there's been some defending, too.

♥

FOR FUCKING SERIOUS.

it's hard to talk about this shit. it is HARD to look around and go, okay, this blows for basically everyone. it's hard to realize - like, I don't know if you remember, but green day had a concert about a year back and they called this girl onstage and she shredded her way through one of their songs, and everyone was shocked because she was a girl and didn't look like the type to be able to play well. So it's hard to look at incidents like that, which made the news and got linked all over and such, and realize what a huge hole there is in society when it comes to women in various roles. it sucks. and it sucks realizing that these people you've spent tons of time on just aren't cutting it, fail-wise.

but...we still have to talk about it. we're fandom. talking is what we DO. and we can't just constantly bag on the ladies in fandom and not even mention that, hey, calling a young female fan a cunt is a douche move.

IN CONCLUSION, I love you.

Edited 2010-10-01 16:34 (UTC)

Precisely. Idealistic as that is, I am pretty much the world's biggest idealist, and so that's what I think. ♥

there have been a lot of "well we can't expect MCR to know about feminism" comments, which...I mean, I don't expect them to be able to bust out a definition of "kyriachy". But knowing your fans are mostly young and female, and then busting out one of the more misogynistic slurs in the American vernacular? That's not Feminism 101, that's fifth grade detention.

Ah, okay. Geez. Yeah, I don't understand that argument at all. You don't need to know about activism to know that some things are just damn offensive and likely shouldn't be said. That excuse is just flimsy.

Obviously the telepathy is still working. ♥ (And oh man, the calm and rational tone is the product of waiting five days after starting to think about something.)

To be fair, that one was an older one. As was the Vicky-T problems. But I, uh, felt they were relevant to my point. Just a bit.

Ah, it's the Twitter stuff? I explain it in a comment lower down. Talking is excellent, yes. As

emilytheodd said up above, it's pretty much all we've got.

As Imp said, there's been some well-they're-just-boys sort of defenses floating around, and a hell of a lot of ignoring. And if you're right about the ignoring being a product of fear of being overrun, then that's horribly tragic. (I know of one case where that's certainly true, fuck.) We HAVE to be able to talk about these things. I do understand doing it under flock where one might feel it's easier to be honest, but every other fandom has been able to have this discussion (not without a lot of GAH going on, but they've HAD the discussion). I feel like it's part of the same mechanism--we are so hard on each other, this group-consisting-mostly-of-women, and that hurts.

Ahaha, I know, right?

Dialogue is, as ever, essential. And I'm really really tired of silence.

I do remember that! I LOVED THAT VIDEO. You're right, too--it's hard, it's so hard, because it makes you flinch at your favorite tv-show (which has a number of good things! just no women or characters of color) or your favorite movie (Ocean's 11, why you gotta hurt me like that) or--yes. And it makes you so angry, and no one wants to be angry all the time. But ignoring it, yeah, that doesn't lead anywhere but worse. Because change might be incredibly hard to affect, but we fucking can, even if it's just in our little corner of the internet. I have to believe that.

PRETTY MUCH. And I am very fond of you too. ♥

Oh man I am so glad you wrote this because this whole thing made me too frustrated to post about it (yes, me, too frustrated to post about an issue like this!)

WHERE were all the hand wringing OH BUT I WANT TO COMPARTMENTALIZE I CAN SEPARATE THE MUSIC FROM THE MUSICIANS I STILL WANT TO PLAY IN FANDOM posts after The Like's ONE upsetting interview? Nowhere to be found. It was all INSTANT CONDEMNATION and yet when Ray makes jokes about whores or how women can't play video games or Frank makes jokes about abortions and punching women or uses racial slurs or the band uses transphobic slurs in their MARKETING we have to TALK ABOUT IT and WORRY ABOUT IT -- um, hello, THAT IS FUCKED.

ok, I'm a little pent up about this.

I know, right? It was so glaring I could barely believe it, and then I became furious, and, well, this was the result of THAT. Double standards are so fucked, seeing them perpetuated is the most frustrating thing IN THE WORLD. Because it's so illogical! HELLO, if this person did this thing and this other person did this similar thing, they ought to be handled in a similar way. It just makes sense! AND YET.

I agree with everything you said in this post. EVERYTHING.

That said, I think the reason why I often hope (not expect, but hope) that women will be more aware is because... I have to do this by analogy.

I am "marked" in three ways: I am female, I am queer and I am Jewish. With the exception of the first, I can pass where it comes to the other two. I choose not to, but that is a choice. That said, I spend a LOT of time listening to non-queer or non-Jewish people say shit that they really shouldn't. And three-fourths of the time, it's not because they mean to be offensive. It's because, having lived their lives as, say, Christian in America, it is quite literally outside their experience to understand what is problematic with their speech.

Now, let me say here: I do not, for a MOMENT, thing that Gerard Way does not understand the problematic connotations of either "cunt" or "ladyboy." I am making a more generalized point here: I hope for women to use less problematic language about women, because they have had to live the experience of being a woman. The knowledge, at least in my experience, is somewhat experiental, rather than taught.

Now, that said, since it is a LEARNABLE issue, once that knowledge has been gained (and, going back to Gerard Way, that knowledge was CLEARLY gained--or, for that matter, Gabe), at that point, I hold the EXACT same hope that I do for women.

I will admit that I was more saddened by Z's comments, but I was more saddened because it felt not only like she had oversimplified something that she should know wasn't simple merely by having lived her life, but because it suggested a lack of empathy that I wish more PEOPLE--not men, not women, transgenders, queers, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, WHATEVER--would have.

Does that make any sense? Because I'm running on fumes and I sense I might be slightly incoherent. I apologize if that is the case.

I see what you're saying but, hmm. Okay, I need to use an analogous example in order to explain how I feel, I think.

The thing is, I've seen this happen a lot. My mother does a lot of gender equality work in her very male-dominated field, and something that she's seen over and over and over is a resentment against the women who fail or who get by through appealing to stereotypes (you know, play the bimbo), a sort of why-can't-they-just-get-it-right from the women who do make it on their own terms, who do manage to walk into those workplaces every day and face the constant challenges to their competence, the never-ending doubt that they are there because they deserve to be. And because they DO make it but the questions and the challenges never ever stop, they end up wishing other women would do things in the right way, because then maybe they wouldn't be challenged all the time. You know, essentially blaming other women for the way patriarchy works.

And I can't blame all of those women for feeling that way, at least not at first, until they've talked about it and had help with seeing the patterns, because it takes a lot to become aware of this kind of thing, and it's so much easier to decide obviously you yourself are the right kind of woman and everyone else is doing it wrong.

Let's be clear, I don't mean I condone it or that they don't need to become aware or work on this, but ultimately I blame the way the system works more than I blame the individual woman. And you know, the music scene? Well. Nearly every interview with The Like brings up the fact that they're GIRLS, and wow, isn't that interesting, and there's one where Tennessee gets a question about whether people aren't surprised sometimes that they play so well even though they're girls? And she says, "I get that every night." Every night. And so I get how Z would end up in a place where she could say something nasty like that, because they wish they could just do their thing and it wouldn't be such a big deal and they wouldn't have to keep proving themselves. All the time. Every day.

I mean, I emailed them for a reason: I'm not okay with women doing these things to each other. But I've also seen it so much that I feel like it's a result of a fucked, fucked system, and feel some empathy for her because she hasn't figured it out yet. Because this is so hard, and it's so hard for all women to figure this out, I can't blame her for not having gotten there, because I've seen all those women mom works with slowly figure it out and completely change their approach. And so I was saddened by Z's comment because I know what it is and I know where it comes from and the problem is so big that it's hard to change, but I was furious by the MCR language fail because of the ongoing trend of it, starting with Frank joking about abortion and then domestic violence (which is just a spectacular lack of empathy right there) and going on for a year until now.

Oh, hm, I think it did come out wrong. I don't think BLAME is what I'm feeling. And I agree, "not there yet" is pretty much exactly what I think is happening here.

At the same time, I know what it feels like to be the only girl/woman in a male-dominated space. I know from the profession I'm going into, I know from growing up in a non-egal synagogue as a girl who regularly attends services, I just, know. And so I also know that it's possible to live in that space, and be frustrated by it, and still know that it's not other WOMEN'S fault.

I agree, wholly, that there is a larger systemic issue (and, tbph, I think Frank's behavior is PART of that system, rather than a symptom of it), but even knowing that, it doesn't make me less saddened by the results of it, PARTICULARLY in younger women.

I guess what I'm saying is that in the young women who either don't grow up with a strong feminist perspective (like me, with my mom), or with enough non-majority identities that the experiences together act as an aid to seeing how systemic it all is (like you, it sounds like), the route to frustration is shorter because they don't have the context to understand what is happening. But I've seen frustration turn into awareness many, many times. So there's a hope in that too, and that's why it being systemic is a little less sad, because it makes it less personal.

Just as an example, one of my best friends told me very earnestly at 21 that feminism was dead and feminists are all nuts who weren't working hard enough. I smiled at her instead of yelling (because with people I care about, I have a lot of patience--I had the feeling she was worth being patient with), and about a year ago now she told me there were two things she thought were essential and if people were wrong about them she couldn't deal: "abortion rights and equal rights in the workplace." Human beings have a lot of potential for change, basically. So when I see this in younger women, I remember Sara so vividly, and the things she said in her early twenties and how wholeheartedly she has changed now.

However, a development that seems to go backwards is not on. And that's my difference, here. And again, I'm not saying it wasn't problematic or we shouldn't be talking about it, but I think there's a significant difference in the way that fandom has responded to MCR making girl-bashing statements repeatedly (the only one who hasn't done it at this point is Mikey) and Z's one problematic interview. And I think the only place we don't agree is that women have more of a responsibility to get it right than men do--I know you said you don't blame her, but you also said you expect women to get it because of the lives we lead, and I just--traumatic or difficult or even irritating experiences don't automatically bring awareness. And I don't think they should be expected to. I think, like you also said, everyone should be expected to have that kind of empathy--hence the post.

Fair enough. I suspect part of the issue is not so much that I expect MORE from women, etc., so much as that I have come, over the years, to expect so very LITTLE from people who have never experienced some form of oppression.

(Which may explain why Mikey continuously surprises me simply by NOT being a douche. *sigh*)

I'm late to this post, but THANK YOU. It is so important to be able to talk about the ways our favorites fail, and to hold them ALL accountable. I'm so tired of the girls getting called out while the guys get defended. I was pissed about what Z said too, but it's not WORSE when she does it than it is when oh, say, Ryan does.

Which I know is what you just said, but yes this post is it exactly. Thank you.

No kidding! Feminism is about allowing women not to be perfect and still be seen as okay people--I mean, seriously, since when are women the people carrying all the responsibility for the patriarchy? Uh, since always, but you know what I mean.

I emailed The Like because, yeah, not on, but I can't even tell you how much I'm not fine with their one problematic interview being universally condemned (and seen as the evidence that they have forever failed as feminists) when EVERY SINGLE OTHER BANDOM BAND except, like, Empires and THS, have done something similar (or worse) in a song or an interview, but no one talked about those. Because they're boys and we can't possibly expect them to get it. I mean, okay, I did just tell you--that's the post--but dear god, if we're going to have an actual discussion about sexism in the scene we can't look the other way when the boys do it and pounce when the girls do. It just doesn't work that way.

(catching up, sorry!)

There are not enough 'THIS' in the world. So far I saw maybe three people addressing problematic stuff, and their posts got either lost in a sea or squeeage or went pretty much ignored. I've got told off when I dared to say something myself, too ('people don't know it's a slur, so it's okay!' 'intent is magical!' 'I'm not offended and I choose to ignore what they say, because the squee, the squee, the squee!'), so... I'm disheartened. And not really willing to try and educate people anymore.

It needs to be noted, however, that some of those people were also the ones who went up in arms against Amanda Palmer or alerted people first about previous transphobic fails. I love the double standards. I do, I do.

Thankfully people here have been great, but I'm really sorry you got told off, that is so not on. "I'm not offended so it's okay!" is my least favorite version of derailings ever, I think. I mean the others suck, but seriously? Ugh.

Double standards are pretty much the reason I wrote this post. I WANT to have a serious discussion about sexism in the scene, but as long as women are being taken to task severely for their part in it whereas men get off without so much as a comment, it'll never be a serious discussion. Ever.

I missed the boat on this - again, ugh, stupid laptop (although maybe it has connections to the one before? And Christ, I got so incredibly sad typing that) - but just. You always articulate so well the things I stumble over and struggle with, and so I hope you don't mind me just saying YES to all of it.

I just saw this, and FYI I love you. Fifth grade detention, yes, precisely this.

The one before it--oh, you mean when I posted about Gerard calling a fan a cunt? Oh, yes. It's prompted by the fact that fandom-at-large seemed to take MUCH more offense from Z making a comment about other lady musicians (more than able to defend themselves) than from Gerard calling one of his young female fans a cunt--which, the power differential there? ARGH. You know. That. Hence the post. Everyone should be accountable, and it's sort of unbelievably ridiculous when we hold women more accountable than men for sexism--who holds the power in this scenario, right?

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