on language fail and accountability

[harborshore]

Look. I've been seeing an argument made in a lot of places about the recent (and the not-so-recent) language fail in bandom, and I've been talking about it in a number of other people's journals, and I'm just—



It's not hard not to use slurs. It's not. That's not about policing language, that's a bare minimum of decency. Seriously. To imply that it's too high of a standard to hold MCR to is frankly insulting to them. It's not about expecting them to be super feminist. It's about not using harmful words that are more or less widely acknowledged as such (the fact that transphobic words are less well-known is a serious problem, but it doesn't mean that the fact that the word is hugely problematic is any less so because there's a chance they previously didn't know). Can we not imply or flat-out say that men are unable to do this? Particularly not dudes who previously have shown themselves as somewhat aware of problematic things in the scene?





And yeah, Z's recent interview was also hugely problematic. Of course it was. It's so emblematic of the way women are taught that they have to be the right kind of woman to make it, which I imagine is amplified by what is a very sexist music scene, and it makes me so goddamn sad to see it here too. Dammit, Z. I've emailed The Like pointing out that the way to have a productive discussion about issues like "women in music," which, it sounded like some of the interview was about that, is really really not to lash out at other female musicians for the way they dress, using a slur while doing so. That's harsh and harmful and I'm not down with that.





But fandom, fandom, if you're going to hold Z accountable for that (and I'm really not telling you not to!), then please refrain from making excuses for the boys. I'm tired of seeing Vicky-T yelled at every time she does anything at all, whereas Gabe is regularly offensive (yes, I find him endearing too, but seriously) and no one really talks about it, or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before, like somehow he doesn't make his own decisions about what he says or how he markets his album. Or anything. Everyone should be held accountable, otherwise you're judging a woman a million times more harshly than you're judging the men, and that's not really feminist either, hmm? The scene can be such a sexist place, but we have to talk about the fact that it is, HOW it is sexist, and what can be done about it, or nothing will ever change. It doesn't mean you can't continue to love your favorites--after all, I still very much love The Like--it just means that sometimes we have to talk about the fact that they're not perfect.

Comments

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I GET MAD YOU KNOW HOW IT GOES. in sum: slurs are easy not to use and double standards are stupid. GRRR.

ETA: most importantly, not talking about it has never been a great way to get anything done when it comes to awareness or social justice or changing the way we use language or the way we treat each other. you know.

[kickingrad.livejournal.com]

ALL OF THE YESES ARE FOR YOU. ALL OF THEM. This is exactly the point I was trying to formulate.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

&YOU; i was getting antsy and having trouble thinking about Other Things.

[blindmouse.livejournal.com]

or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before

That happens?

This is a very good post! I agree with it! All the word choices floating about interviews are still making me sad. Not every environment is as linguistically hung up as this corner of the internet, I acknowledge, but you do know when you're using one of the really loaded ones, I think.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Yes it does! I read a blog post a couple of months ago that blamed MCR's influx of fail on Lyn-Z and MSI and their fuck-everything ethos. And then I had to go hit a wall a couple of times. Now, I have my own problems with the latter band (I don't actually think it's okay to say anything in the pursuit of shocking your audience), but dude, Gerard is a big boy, he can take responsibility for his own use of girl-bashing slurs.

You do! Gerard should know better, Z should know better, Frank should know better. (I'm willing to make allowances for Ryan at 17, because teenagers are teenagers.) But I'm not down with the fact that there is more talk about Z's fail than about MCR's, because double standards piss me off. Feminism means women have the right to fail too, you know? And we'll call them out on it, but we will damn well call the men out on it too.

[almostblue.livejournal.com]

I love you.

Just sayin'.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

&you;

Yeah, once I get mad enough I have to say something, you know how it goes.

[sullen-hearts.livejournal.com]

Yes. Exactly.

I have found Gabe racistly offensive the one time I met him. That was *not* good times.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Oh, THAT'S great. Not. UGH.

[jubella.livejournal.com]

This is what I've been trying to say for the past week or two! Thank you for putting it into a much more structured, coherent, and eloquent way. ♥

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Double standards have a way of catapulting me straight into blind fury: this post would have been way less coherent had it been made a couple of days ago. ♥

[giddy-london.livejournal.com]

What I find interesting (and by interesting I mean infuriating) is that not only do fans judge women like Z or Lyn-Z or Vicky-T more harshly than their male counterparts, but fans judge other female fans more harshly than the dudes in the bands with regard to faily language. The same fans who jump all over other fans for using racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic language are the very same people who willfully ignore the same language when used by someone like Frank or Gerard. So do a penis and privilege give these guys a pass, or is problematic language okay because then the fans are "just compartmentalizing"? Either way, it's bullshit, and so much of the reason I was and continue to be frustrated with this fandom.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I mean, this is obviously a societal problem that goes way beyond this scene. So that's not surprising. But yes, I hear you--we judge each other (society sucks that way, making us watch each other so closely for the tiniest mistakes) while we indulge the men. WTF, world. Analogy: "I've met the GREATEST guy. He calls me when he says he will, he compliments me, he doesn't blow me off..." which are like basic standards for normal friendship. AND YET. I think it's a combination of the penis+privilege factor and the fact that people would rather come to fandom for happy thoughts. But then they ought to ignore every piece of fail, no?

[disarm-d.livejournal.com]

I saw more discussion about Amanda Palmer's fail than I ever did about MCR, even though there's 1000% more squee about anything MRC does (so it's not that people are just more aware of what AP's up to). It's not that I don't think people should call out women, but I'm sick of reading about the various things that women have done wrong when there's not a similar level of discussion about men.

Panic's got the word "whore" in their song. It's not like anyone's boycotting Fever. If you squint and remove anything problematic, Z's vaguely saying that women should be able to make music without selling sex. Vaguely...

(Plus -- and I probably shouldn't even open up this can of worms, but it's early in the morning so whatever -- I don't think that the expressions of female sexuality in the music industry are universally empowered. I think that some women have control over their image and use their sexuality to do what THEY want -- Gaga being an excellent example. And then I think of Michelle Branch's rant about how she's sick of having to suck record exec dick to get her song played on the radio. There's a lot that's wrong with the music industry. While obviously women should be allowed to wear whatever they want and express their sexuality in whatever way they're comfortable with, I think that there can be a discussion on the oversexualization of music.)

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

It's not that I don't think people should call out women, but I'm sick of reading about the various things that women have done wrong when there's not a similar level of discussion about men.

Oh my god, yes. That's basically the reason I wrote this post. The double standards infuriate me. A LOT. Especially because in MCR's case, it's been going on for a while, and the discussion has been virtually NONEXISTENT. I mean, even back when Frank was making domestic violence jokes on Twitter, no one was saying anything at all, or if they did, it was related to asshole!Frank which was of course a great joke. And Leathermouth's lyrics are funny. Or something.

(Dude, that is a can of worms that should be opened. I actually really agree--I think Z chose the WORST way to say it, but it's certainly a discussion that ought to be had. You're right--Gaga is a good example of that, whereas there are several examples of really uncomfortable ways that other women in music have been made to conform to certain images.)

[modillian.livejournal.com]

or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before
:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NO.


Man. I've missed what's happening. But you've got the right idea and I agree with you. We've gotta SPEAK UP about it.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

To be fair, that one was an older one. As was the Vicky-T problems. But I, uh, felt they were relevant to my point. Just a bit.


Ah, it's the Twitter stuff? I explain it in a comment lower down. Talking is excellent, yes. As emilytheodd said up above, it's pretty much all we've got.

[languisity.livejournal.com]

You know, I have to wonder, with the way fandom is, how many people want to say something but hide it behind flock. I've had a few friends make locked posts with seventy million disclaimers so as not to rock the boat or harsh squee. So, at the end of the day, all you're left with are the diehard "they can do nothing wrong" fans who are the loudest. I think there's a definite issue with how female musicians are treated in comparison to their male counterparts, but there's also something to be said for what happens to the fans who try to call attention to the fucked up things the dudes do on a regular basis. People aren't going to talk much if they know they will be shouted down. Couple that with the fact that women tend to be easy targets (acknowledging the disparity between callouts, not saying many of aren't deserved), and the whole thing is just one huge reinforcement of misogyny.


I can't believe people are essentially arguing how hard it is not to use slurs, though? Way to insult people's intelligence, guys.

[impertinence.livejournal.com]

there have been a lot of "well we can't expect MCR to know about feminism" comments, which...I mean, I don't expect them to be able to bust out a definition of "kyriachy". But knowing your fans are mostly young and female, and then busting out one of the more misogynistic slurs in the American vernacular? That's not Feminism 101, that's fifth grade detention.

[desfinado.livejournal.com]

Yes!!! I am very on board with dialogue, and of staying aware of who we hold accountable for things and who we don't and WHY. Thanks for getting us thinking!

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Dialogue is, as ever, essential. And I'm really really tired of silence.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

One of the character Twitters (confirmed as Gerard's) called a female fan a cunt on Twitter (completely unprovoked, not that that fucking matters), another one said something about the "first slut at the orgy," and the character on roller skates in the video is called "Ladyboy," which is a transphobic slur. Also, Frank Iero has made a number of spectacularly unfunny sexist jokes on Twitter in the past that have since been removed (but if one goes through tothetune, they're there still, I just don't have the links).

It's not, but neither is judging her more harshly than the aforementioned dudes in the fandom--it's not like "whore" isn't in one of Panic's songs, for instance, and something I've never seen discussed is the live performance of "Sins..." where the (mostly female) audience yells the word back at them. We ought to be able to call Z out and also call the rest of them out while we're talking about faily language--she isn't MORE supposed to think about what she says or does than the boys are. Because that's really not feminist either.

Of course not! Hi! :)

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

Yes, this.

I think the fact that these problems go so much deeper and are so much more entrenched than their expression in fandom is a big part of the reason why fandom fails so hard at dealing with them. Because it's all so ugly and scary and dreadful, you know? and once you start thinking about the implications, quite a lot of things become less shiny and enjoyable. But that's also the reason it's so vitally important that fandom talk about them and try to deal with them. Fandom doesn't exist in a vacuum; the things that cause hurt in the rest of the world also cause hurt here.

*hugs*

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

&you;

Yes, absolutely. Thinking about the fact that society works like that almost physically hurts, you know? And it makes you flinch away from things you like, and that hurts too. But I think (maybe) what can actually help is talking, because if we make it more clear that the issues are big, if we pair accountability with awareness of larger patterns, then maybe it'll be a little easier to have the conversation without it being quite as hurtful. Possibly. I'm not sure I'm making sense.

*hugs*

[impertinence.livejournal.com]

FOR FUCKING SERIOUS.

it's hard to talk about this shit. it is HARD to look around and go, okay, this blows for basically everyone. it's hard to realize - like, I don't know if you remember, but green day had a concert about a year back and they called this girl onstage and she shredded her way through one of their songs, and everyone was shocked because she was a girl and didn't look like the type to be able to play well. So it's hard to look at incidents like that, which made the news and got linked all over and such, and realize what a huge hole there is in society when it comes to women in various roles. it sucks. and it sucks realizing that these people you've spent tons of time on just aren't cutting it, fail-wise.

but...we still have to talk about it. we're fandom. talking is what we DO. and we can't just constantly bag on the ladies in fandom and not even mention that, hey, calling a young female fan a cunt is a douche move.

IN CONCLUSION, I love you.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I do remember that! I LOVED THAT VIDEO. You're right, too--it's hard, it's so hard, because it makes you flinch at your favorite tv-show (which has a number of good things! just no women or characters of color) or your favorite movie (Ocean's 11, why you gotta hurt me like that) or--yes. And it makes you so angry, and no one wants to be angry all the time. But ignoring it, yeah, that doesn't lead anywhere but worse. Because change might be incredibly hard to affect, but we fucking can, even if it's just in our little corner of the internet. I have to believe that.

PRETTY MUCH. And I am very fond of you too. ♥

[globalfruitbat.livejournal.com]

Oh man I am so glad you wrote this because this whole thing made me too frustrated to post about it (yes, me, too frustrated to post about an issue like this!)

WHERE were all the hand wringing OH BUT I WANT TO COMPARTMENTALIZE I CAN SEPARATE THE MUSIC FROM THE MUSICIANS I STILL WANT TO PLAY IN FANDOM posts after The Like's ONE upsetting interview? Nowhere to be found. It was all INSTANT CONDEMNATION and yet when Ray makes jokes about whores or how women can't play video games or Frank makes jokes about abortions and punching women or uses racial slurs or the band uses transphobic slurs in their MARKETING we have to TALK ABOUT IT and WORRY ABOUT IT -- um, hello, THAT IS FUCKED.

ok, I'm a little pent up about this.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I know, right? It was so glaring I could barely believe it, and then I became furious, and, well, this was the result of THAT. Double standards are so fucked, seeing them perpetuated is the most frustrating thing IN THE WORLD. Because it's so illogical! HELLO, if this person did this thing and this other person did this similar thing, they ought to be handled in a similar way. It just makes sense! AND YET.

[arsenicjade.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you said in this post. EVERYTHING.

That said, I think the reason why I often hope (not expect, but hope) that women will be more aware is because... I have to do this by analogy.

I am "marked" in three ways: I am female, I am queer and I am Jewish. With the exception of the first, I can pass where it comes to the other two. I choose not to, but that is a choice. That said, I spend a LOT of time listening to non-queer or non-Jewish people say shit that they really shouldn't. And three-fourths of the time, it's not because they mean to be offensive. It's because, having lived their lives as, say, Christian in America, it is quite literally outside their experience to understand what is problematic with their speech.

Now, let me say here: I do not, for a MOMENT, thing that Gerard Way does not understand the problematic connotations of either "cunt" or "ladyboy." I am making a more generalized point here: I hope for women to use less problematic language about women, because they have had to live the experience of being a woman. The knowledge, at least in my experience, is somewhat experiental, rather than taught.

Now, that said, since it is a LEARNABLE issue, once that knowledge has been gained (and, going back to Gerard Way, that knowledge was CLEARLY gained--or, for that matter, Gabe), at that point, I hold the EXACT same hope that I do for women.

I will admit that I was more saddened by Z's comments, but I was more saddened because it felt not only like she had oversimplified something that she should know wasn't simple merely by having lived her life, but because it suggested a lack of empathy that I wish more PEOPLE--not men, not women, transgenders, queers, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, WHATEVER--would have.

Does that make any sense? Because I'm running on fumes and I sense I might be slightly incoherent. I apologize if that is the case.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I see what you're saying but, hmm. Okay, I need to use an analogous example in order to explain how I feel, I think.

The thing is, I've seen this happen a lot. My mother does a lot of gender equality work in her very male-dominated field, and something that she's seen over and over and over is a resentment against the women who fail or who get by through appealing to stereotypes (you know, play the bimbo), a sort of why-can't-they-just-get-it-right from the women who do make it on their own terms, who do manage to walk into those workplaces every day and face the constant challenges to their competence, the never-ending doubt that they are there because they deserve to be. And because they DO make it but the questions and the challenges never ever stop, they end up wishing other women would do things in the right way, because then maybe they wouldn't be challenged all the time. You know, essentially blaming other women for the way patriarchy works.

And I can't blame all of those women for feeling that way, at least not at first, until they've talked about it and had help with seeing the patterns, because it takes a lot to become aware of this kind of thing, and it's so much easier to decide obviously you yourself are the right kind of woman and everyone else is doing it wrong.

Let's be clear, I don't mean I condone it or that they don't need to become aware or work on this, but ultimately I blame the way the system works more than I blame the individual woman. And you know, the music scene? Well. Nearly every interview with The Like brings up the fact that they're GIRLS, and wow, isn't that interesting, and there's one where Tennessee gets a question about whether people aren't surprised sometimes that they play so well even though they're girls? And she says, "I get that every night." Every night. And so I get how Z would end up in a place where she could say something nasty like that, because they wish they could just do their thing and it wouldn't be such a big deal and they wouldn't have to keep proving themselves. All the time. Every day.

I mean, I emailed them for a reason: I'm not okay with women doing these things to each other. But I've also seen it so much that I feel like it's a result of a fucked, fucked system, and feel some empathy for her because she hasn't figured it out yet. Because this is so hard, and it's so hard for all women to figure this out, I can't blame her for not having gotten there, because I've seen all those women mom works with slowly figure it out and completely change their approach. And so I was saddened by Z's comment because I know what it is and I know where it comes from and the problem is so big that it's hard to change, but I was furious by the MCR language fail because of the ongoing trend of it, starting with Frank joking about abortion and then domestic violence (which is just a spectacular lack of empathy right there) and going on for a year until now.

[redbrickrose.livejournal.com]

I'm late to this post, but THANK YOU. It is so important to be able to talk about the ways our favorites fail, and to hold them ALL accountable. I'm so tired of the girls getting called out while the guys get defended. I was pissed about what Z said too, but it's not WORSE when she does it than it is when oh, say, Ryan does.

Which I know is what you just said, but yes this post is it exactly. Thank you.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

No kidding! Feminism is about allowing women not to be perfect and still be seen as okay people--I mean, seriously, since when are women the people carrying all the responsibility for the patriarchy? Uh, since always, but you know what I mean.

I emailed The Like because, yeah, not on, but I can't even tell you how much I'm not fine with their one problematic interview being universally condemned (and seen as the evidence that they have forever failed as feminists) when EVERY SINGLE OTHER BANDOM BAND except, like, Empires and THS, have done something similar (or worse) in a song or an interview, but no one talked about those. Because they're boys and we can't possibly expect them to get it. I mean, okay, I did just tell you--that's the post--but dear god, if we're going to have an actual discussion about sexism in the scene we can't look the other way when the boys do it and pounce when the girls do. It just doesn't work that way.

[nahemaraxe.livejournal.com]

(catching up, sorry!)

There are not enough 'THIS' in the world. So far I saw maybe three people addressing problematic stuff, and their posts got either lost in a sea or squeeage or went pretty much ignored. I've got told off when I dared to say something myself, too ('people don't know it's a slur, so it's okay!' 'intent is magical!' 'I'm not offended and I choose to ignore what they say, because the squee, the squee, the squee!'), so... I'm disheartened. And not really willing to try and educate people anymore.

It needs to be noted, however, that some of those people were also the ones who went up in arms against Amanda Palmer or alerted people first about previous transphobic fails. I love the double standards. I do, I do.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Thankfully people here have been great, but I'm really sorry you got told off, that is so not on. "I'm not offended so it's okay!" is my least favorite version of derailings ever, I think. I mean the others suck, but seriously? Ugh.

Double standards are pretty much the reason I wrote this post. I WANT to have a serious discussion about sexism in the scene, but as long as women are being taken to task severely for their part in it whereas men get off without so much as a comment, it'll never be a serious discussion. Ever.

[x_dark_siren_x]

I missed the boat on this - again, ugh, stupid laptop (although maybe it has connections to the one before? And Christ, I got so incredibly sad typing that) - but just. You always articulate so well the things I stumble over and struggle with, and so I hope you don't mind me just saying YES to all of it.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

The one before it--oh, you mean when I posted about Gerard calling a fan a cunt? Oh, yes. It's prompted by the fact that fandom-at-large seemed to take MUCH more offense from Z making a comment about other lady musicians (more than able to defend themselves) than from Gerard calling one of his young female fans a cunt--which, the power differential there? ARGH. You know. That. Hence the post. Everyone should be accountable, and it's sort of unbelievably ridiculous when we hold women more accountable than men for sexism--who holds the power in this scenario, right?