on language fail and accountability

[harborshore]

Look. I've been seeing an argument made in a lot of places about the recent (and the not-so-recent) language fail in bandom, and I've been talking about it in a number of other people's journals, and I'm just—



It's not hard not to use slurs. It's not. That's not about policing language, that's a bare minimum of decency. Seriously. To imply that it's too high of a standard to hold MCR to is frankly insulting to them. It's not about expecting them to be super feminist. It's about not using harmful words that are more or less widely acknowledged as such (the fact that transphobic words are less well-known is a serious problem, but it doesn't mean that the fact that the word is hugely problematic is any less so because there's a chance they previously didn't know). Can we not imply or flat-out say that men are unable to do this? Particularly not dudes who previously have shown themselves as somewhat aware of problematic things in the scene?





And yeah, Z's recent interview was also hugely problematic. Of course it was. It's so emblematic of the way women are taught that they have to be the right kind of woman to make it, which I imagine is amplified by what is a very sexist music scene, and it makes me so goddamn sad to see it here too. Dammit, Z. I've emailed The Like pointing out that the way to have a productive discussion about issues like "women in music," which, it sounded like some of the interview was about that, is really really not to lash out at other female musicians for the way they dress, using a slur while doing so. That's harsh and harmful and I'm not down with that.





But fandom, fandom, if you're going to hold Z accountable for that (and I'm really not telling you not to!), then please refrain from making excuses for the boys. I'm tired of seeing Vicky-T yelled at every time she does anything at all, whereas Gabe is regularly offensive (yes, I find him endearing too, but seriously) and no one really talks about it, or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before, like somehow he doesn't make his own decisions about what he says or how he markets his album. Or anything. Everyone should be held accountable, otherwise you're judging a woman a million times more harshly than you're judging the men, and that's not really feminist either, hmm? The scene can be such a sexist place, but we have to talk about the fact that it is, HOW it is sexist, and what can be done about it, or nothing will ever change. It doesn't mean you can't continue to love your favorites--after all, I still very much love The Like--it just means that sometimes we have to talk about the fact that they're not perfect.

Comments

[kickingrad.livejournal.com]

ALL OF THE YESES ARE FOR YOU. ALL OF THEM. This is exactly the point I was trying to formulate.

[blindmouse.livejournal.com]

or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before

That happens?

This is a very good post! I agree with it! All the word choices floating about interviews are still making me sad. Not every environment is as linguistically hung up as this corner of the internet, I acknowledge, but you do know when you're using one of the really loaded ones, I think.

[almostblue.livejournal.com]

I love you.

Just sayin'.

[sullen-hearts.livejournal.com]

Yes. Exactly.

I have found Gabe racistly offensive the one time I met him. That was *not* good times.

[jubella.livejournal.com]

This is what I've been trying to say for the past week or two! Thank you for putting it into a much more structured, coherent, and eloquent way. ♥

[giddy-london.livejournal.com]

What I find interesting (and by interesting I mean infuriating) is that not only do fans judge women like Z or Lyn-Z or Vicky-T more harshly than their male counterparts, but fans judge other female fans more harshly than the dudes in the bands with regard to faily language. The same fans who jump all over other fans for using racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic language are the very same people who willfully ignore the same language when used by someone like Frank or Gerard. So do a penis and privilege give these guys a pass, or is problematic language okay because then the fans are "just compartmentalizing"? Either way, it's bullshit, and so much of the reason I was and continue to be frustrated with this fandom.

[disarm-d.livejournal.com]

I saw more discussion about Amanda Palmer's fail than I ever did about MCR, even though there's 1000% more squee about anything MRC does (so it's not that people are just more aware of what AP's up to). It's not that I don't think people should call out women, but I'm sick of reading about the various things that women have done wrong when there's not a similar level of discussion about men.

Panic's got the word "whore" in their song. It's not like anyone's boycotting Fever. If you squint and remove anything problematic, Z's vaguely saying that women should be able to make music without selling sex. Vaguely...

(Plus -- and I probably shouldn't even open up this can of worms, but it's early in the morning so whatever -- I don't think that the expressions of female sexuality in the music industry are universally empowered. I think that some women have control over their image and use their sexuality to do what THEY want -- Gaga being an excellent example. And then I think of Michelle Branch's rant about how she's sick of having to suck record exec dick to get her song played on the radio. There's a lot that's wrong with the music industry. While obviously women should be allowed to wear whatever they want and express their sexuality in whatever way they're comfortable with, I think that there can be a discussion on the oversexualization of music.)

[modillian.livejournal.com]

or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before
:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NO.


Man. I've missed what's happening. But you've got the right idea and I agree with you. We've gotta SPEAK UP about it.

[languisity.livejournal.com]

You know, I have to wonder, with the way fandom is, how many people want to say something but hide it behind flock. I've had a few friends make locked posts with seventy million disclaimers so as not to rock the boat or harsh squee. So, at the end of the day, all you're left with are the diehard "they can do nothing wrong" fans who are the loudest. I think there's a definite issue with how female musicians are treated in comparison to their male counterparts, but there's also something to be said for what happens to the fans who try to call attention to the fucked up things the dudes do on a regular basis. People aren't going to talk much if they know they will be shouted down. Couple that with the fact that women tend to be easy targets (acknowledging the disparity between callouts, not saying many of aren't deserved), and the whole thing is just one huge reinforcement of misogyny.


I can't believe people are essentially arguing how hard it is not to use slurs, though? Way to insult people's intelligence, guys.

[desfinado.livejournal.com]

Yes!!! I am very on board with dialogue, and of staying aware of who we hold accountable for things and who we don't and WHY. Thanks for getting us thinking!

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

Yes, this.

I think the fact that these problems go so much deeper and are so much more entrenched than their expression in fandom is a big part of the reason why fandom fails so hard at dealing with them. Because it's all so ugly and scary and dreadful, you know? and once you start thinking about the implications, quite a lot of things become less shiny and enjoyable. But that's also the reason it's so vitally important that fandom talk about them and try to deal with them. Fandom doesn't exist in a vacuum; the things that cause hurt in the rest of the world also cause hurt here.

*hugs*

[impertinence.livejournal.com]

FOR FUCKING SERIOUS.

it's hard to talk about this shit. it is HARD to look around and go, okay, this blows for basically everyone. it's hard to realize - like, I don't know if you remember, but green day had a concert about a year back and they called this girl onstage and she shredded her way through one of their songs, and everyone was shocked because she was a girl and didn't look like the type to be able to play well. So it's hard to look at incidents like that, which made the news and got linked all over and such, and realize what a huge hole there is in society when it comes to women in various roles. it sucks. and it sucks realizing that these people you've spent tons of time on just aren't cutting it, fail-wise.

but...we still have to talk about it. we're fandom. talking is what we DO. and we can't just constantly bag on the ladies in fandom and not even mention that, hey, calling a young female fan a cunt is a douche move.

IN CONCLUSION, I love you.

[globalfruitbat.livejournal.com]

Oh man I am so glad you wrote this because this whole thing made me too frustrated to post about it (yes, me, too frustrated to post about an issue like this!)

WHERE were all the hand wringing OH BUT I WANT TO COMPARTMENTALIZE I CAN SEPARATE THE MUSIC FROM THE MUSICIANS I STILL WANT TO PLAY IN FANDOM posts after The Like's ONE upsetting interview? Nowhere to be found. It was all INSTANT CONDEMNATION and yet when Ray makes jokes about whores or how women can't play video games or Frank makes jokes about abortions and punching women or uses racial slurs or the band uses transphobic slurs in their MARKETING we have to TALK ABOUT IT and WORRY ABOUT IT -- um, hello, THAT IS FUCKED.

ok, I'm a little pent up about this.

[arsenicjade.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you said in this post. EVERYTHING.

That said, I think the reason why I often hope (not expect, but hope) that women will be more aware is because... I have to do this by analogy.

I am "marked" in three ways: I am female, I am queer and I am Jewish. With the exception of the first, I can pass where it comes to the other two. I choose not to, but that is a choice. That said, I spend a LOT of time listening to non-queer or non-Jewish people say shit that they really shouldn't. And three-fourths of the time, it's not because they mean to be offensive. It's because, having lived their lives as, say, Christian in America, it is quite literally outside their experience to understand what is problematic with their speech.

Now, let me say here: I do not, for a MOMENT, thing that Gerard Way does not understand the problematic connotations of either "cunt" or "ladyboy." I am making a more generalized point here: I hope for women to use less problematic language about women, because they have had to live the experience of being a woman. The knowledge, at least in my experience, is somewhat experiental, rather than taught.

Now, that said, since it is a LEARNABLE issue, once that knowledge has been gained (and, going back to Gerard Way, that knowledge was CLEARLY gained--or, for that matter, Gabe), at that point, I hold the EXACT same hope that I do for women.

I will admit that I was more saddened by Z's comments, but I was more saddened because it felt not only like she had oversimplified something that she should know wasn't simple merely by having lived her life, but because it suggested a lack of empathy that I wish more PEOPLE--not men, not women, transgenders, queers, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, WHATEVER--would have.

Does that make any sense? Because I'm running on fumes and I sense I might be slightly incoherent. I apologize if that is the case.

[redbrickrose.livejournal.com]

I'm late to this post, but THANK YOU. It is so important to be able to talk about the ways our favorites fail, and to hold them ALL accountable. I'm so tired of the girls getting called out while the guys get defended. I was pissed about what Z said too, but it's not WORSE when she does it than it is when oh, say, Ryan does.

Which I know is what you just said, but yes this post is it exactly. Thank you.

[nahemaraxe.livejournal.com]

(catching up, sorry!)

There are not enough 'THIS' in the world. So far I saw maybe three people addressing problematic stuff, and their posts got either lost in a sea or squeeage or went pretty much ignored. I've got told off when I dared to say something myself, too ('people don't know it's a slur, so it's okay!' 'intent is magical!' 'I'm not offended and I choose to ignore what they say, because the squee, the squee, the squee!'), so... I'm disheartened. And not really willing to try and educate people anymore.

It needs to be noted, however, that some of those people were also the ones who went up in arms against Amanda Palmer or alerted people first about previous transphobic fails. I love the double standards. I do, I do.

[x_dark_siren_x]

I missed the boat on this - again, ugh, stupid laptop (although maybe it has connections to the one before? And Christ, I got so incredibly sad typing that) - but just. You always articulate so well the things I stumble over and struggle with, and so I hope you don't mind me just saying YES to all of it.