on language fail and accountability

[harborshore]

Look. I've been seeing an argument made in a lot of places about the recent (and the not-so-recent) language fail in bandom, and I've been talking about it in a number of other people's journals, and I'm just—



It's not hard not to use slurs. It's not. That's not about policing language, that's a bare minimum of decency. Seriously. To imply that it's too high of a standard to hold MCR to is frankly insulting to them. It's not about expecting them to be super feminist. It's about not using harmful words that are more or less widely acknowledged as such (the fact that transphobic words are less well-known is a serious problem, but it doesn't mean that the fact that the word is hugely problematic is any less so because there's a chance they previously didn't know). Can we not imply or flat-out say that men are unable to do this? Particularly not dudes who previously have shown themselves as somewhat aware of problematic things in the scene?





And yeah, Z's recent interview was also hugely problematic. Of course it was. It's so emblematic of the way women are taught that they have to be the right kind of woman to make it, which I imagine is amplified by what is a very sexist music scene, and it makes me so goddamn sad to see it here too. Dammit, Z. I've emailed The Like pointing out that the way to have a productive discussion about issues like "women in music," which, it sounded like some of the interview was about that, is really really not to lash out at other female musicians for the way they dress, using a slur while doing so. That's harsh and harmful and I'm not down with that.





But fandom, fandom, if you're going to hold Z accountable for that (and I'm really not telling you not to!), then please refrain from making excuses for the boys. I'm tired of seeing Vicky-T yelled at every time she does anything at all, whereas Gabe is regularly offensive (yes, I find him endearing too, but seriously) and no one really talks about it, or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before, like somehow he doesn't make his own decisions about what he says or how he markets his album. Or anything. Everyone should be held accountable, otherwise you're judging a woman a million times more harshly than you're judging the men, and that's not really feminist either, hmm? The scene can be such a sexist place, but we have to talk about the fact that it is, HOW it is sexist, and what can be done about it, or nothing will ever change. It doesn't mean you can't continue to love your favorites--after all, I still very much love The Like--it just means that sometimes we have to talk about the fact that they're not perfect.

Comments

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I see what you're saying but, hmm. Okay, I need to use an analogous example in order to explain how I feel, I think.

The thing is, I've seen this happen a lot. My mother does a lot of gender equality work in her very male-dominated field, and something that she's seen over and over and over is a resentment against the women who fail or who get by through appealing to stereotypes (you know, play the bimbo), a sort of why-can't-they-just-get-it-right from the women who do make it on their own terms, who do manage to walk into those workplaces every day and face the constant challenges to their competence, the never-ending doubt that they are there because they deserve to be. And because they DO make it but the questions and the challenges never ever stop, they end up wishing other women would do things in the right way, because then maybe they wouldn't be challenged all the time. You know, essentially blaming other women for the way patriarchy works.

And I can't blame all of those women for feeling that way, at least not at first, until they've talked about it and had help with seeing the patterns, because it takes a lot to become aware of this kind of thing, and it's so much easier to decide obviously you yourself are the right kind of woman and everyone else is doing it wrong.

Let's be clear, I don't mean I condone it or that they don't need to become aware or work on this, but ultimately I blame the way the system works more than I blame the individual woman. And you know, the music scene? Well. Nearly every interview with The Like brings up the fact that they're GIRLS, and wow, isn't that interesting, and there's one where Tennessee gets a question about whether people aren't surprised sometimes that they play so well even though they're girls? And she says, "I get that every night." Every night. And so I get how Z would end up in a place where she could say something nasty like that, because they wish they could just do their thing and it wouldn't be such a big deal and they wouldn't have to keep proving themselves. All the time. Every day.

I mean, I emailed them for a reason: I'm not okay with women doing these things to each other. But I've also seen it so much that I feel like it's a result of a fucked, fucked system, and feel some empathy for her because she hasn't figured it out yet. Because this is so hard, and it's so hard for all women to figure this out, I can't blame her for not having gotten there, because I've seen all those women mom works with slowly figure it out and completely change their approach. And so I was saddened by Z's comment because I know what it is and I know where it comes from and the problem is so big that it's hard to change, but I was furious by the MCR language fail because of the ongoing trend of it, starting with Frank joking about abortion and then domestic violence (which is just a spectacular lack of empathy right there) and going on for a year until now.

[arsenicjade.livejournal.com]

Oh, hm, I think it did come out wrong. I don't think BLAME is what I'm feeling. And I agree, "not there yet" is pretty much exactly what I think is happening here.

At the same time, I know what it feels like to be the only girl/woman in a male-dominated space. I know from the profession I'm going into, I know from growing up in a non-egal synagogue as a girl who regularly attends services, I just, know. And so I also know that it's possible to live in that space, and be frustrated by it, and still know that it's not other WOMEN'S fault.

I agree, wholly, that there is a larger systemic issue (and, tbph, I think Frank's behavior is PART of that system, rather than a symptom of it), but even knowing that, it doesn't make me less saddened by the results of it, PARTICULARLY in younger women.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I guess what I'm saying is that in the young women who either don't grow up with a strong feminist perspective (like me, with my mom), or with enough non-majority identities that the experiences together act as an aid to seeing how systemic it all is (like you, it sounds like), the route to frustration is shorter because they don't have the context to understand what is happening. But I've seen frustration turn into awareness many, many times. So there's a hope in that too, and that's why it being systemic is a little less sad, because it makes it less personal.

Just as an example, one of my best friends told me very earnestly at 21 that feminism was dead and feminists are all nuts who weren't working hard enough. I smiled at her instead of yelling (because with people I care about, I have a lot of patience--I had the feeling she was worth being patient with), and about a year ago now she told me there were two things she thought were essential and if people were wrong about them she couldn't deal: "abortion rights and equal rights in the workplace." Human beings have a lot of potential for change, basically. So when I see this in younger women, I remember Sara so vividly, and the things she said in her early twenties and how wholeheartedly she has changed now.

However, a development that seems to go backwards is not on. And that's my difference, here. And again, I'm not saying it wasn't problematic or we shouldn't be talking about it, but I think there's a significant difference in the way that fandom has responded to MCR making girl-bashing statements repeatedly (the only one who hasn't done it at this point is Mikey) and Z's one problematic interview. And I think the only place we don't agree is that women have more of a responsibility to get it right than men do--I know you said you don't blame her, but you also said you expect women to get it because of the lives we lead, and I just--traumatic or difficult or even irritating experiences don't automatically bring awareness. And I don't think they should be expected to. I think, like you also said, everyone should be expected to have that kind of empathy--hence the post.

[arsenicjade.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. I suspect part of the issue is not so much that I expect MORE from women, etc., so much as that I have come, over the years, to expect so very LITTLE from people who have never experienced some form of oppression.

(Which may explain why Mikey continuously surprises me simply by NOT being a douche. *sigh*)