harborshore | on eating in company

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on eating in company

Short meta on eating and the pressure women put on one another. As usual, I'm starting from myself, I make no claim to have all the answers, and I'm very open to be disagreed with. Warnings: mention of very severe eating disorder without discussing it in detail.

ETA: as

unlurkster points out, this isn't even about weight, so I took the word out of the first sentence above.

There was a moment during the Israel trip that I particularly liked: Saturday night, when sitting down to dinner with four other women in all shapes and sizes and ordering food, I suddenly realized none of us had made a comment sounding anything like "I really want that, but I shouldn't--" or "Are you sure you want to eat that?" and fuck, it was such a relief. We just ordered! One of us had a tofu salad, one of us had lasagna, one of us had pasta, one of us had a goat cheese sandwich (ME, and it was EXCELLENT), and one of us had vegetable soup. It was done, just like that.

Because this isn't about what you eat. This is about judging someone else based on what they're eating or feeling like you're failing at something because you're on a diet or because you're not on a diet, because I just--every woman I know has some kind of body image issue. Every woman I know. They range in severity, but still. We really could stand to skip the part where we make each other feel guilty about what we eat (the lunches at my old job, for instance, were hell on earth), because the last thing we need is to make food more difficult.

I recognize the incredible privilege I've had of growing up in a house where food was a joyful thing, a healthy thing, something we loved and enjoyed. Dad's sister nearly died from anorexia when she was sixteen and mom was a dancer--those two things together made them try very hard to keep food being not scary. I wish I could give others that feeling. Barring empathy manifesting as a Heraldic power (yes, I read Mercedes Lackey at fourteen), I want to ask at least this much: is there a way that we can keep from making it worse for others? Accept people's food choices, let them eat without feeling guilty about it being a salad/a hamburger/a dessert? Maybe?

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Oh man, I am 100% behind this post. Hearing stories like this make me both incredulous (I've been so lucky as to be in not just a family, but an environment, be that school or work, where eating is relatively angst-free) and sad, because -- why? The situation which you describe is -- it's ridiculous and it isn't healthy.

One thing I wouldn't agree about, though, is maybe what you named your tag. It isn't even about weight. Like you said, it's a body issue.

Shame and guilt are just--why would anyone ever want to pass on their own issues in that way? Because honestly, I feel like that's what it is, with the commenting on others' food especially. I want to talk about food in terms of how great it tastes and how good it looks and smells, I mean, seriously.

You're right! And realizing that made me really happy, actually. I went back and edited. Thank you. ♥

I want to thank you for this post.

You see, I used to be skinny. Like, very very skinny despite all the food I ate. All my life I had to deal with people (who weren't family, my family always knew that I didn't have any eating disorder) spying on how many food I had in my plate, if I ate it all, if I went to the bathroom right after - I always tried to not go peeing after a meal in public because of that. I mean.

Last year doctors eventually found out that it was a thyroid issue, gave me pills to correct it and since then I've been gaining 13 kgs. I'm incredibly happy, mostly because I proved everyone (think co-workers, acquaintances, some doctors) that I didn't have any eating disorders. But it's been hard, especially dealing with some people who felt entitled to judge without knowing anything.

Man, I'm glad they figured it out! Thyroid issues are no joke.

But yes--part of this was prompted because I lost a lot of weight because of medical issues last fall, and I just feel this simultaneous pressure to gain the weight back AND keep it off--which is obviously impossible. And I want to keep food angst-free, because food is one of my favorite things about being alive, you know? FOOD.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever felt guilt about what I ate, unless I knew it was the last of the leftovers or someone else's chocolate.

My "I really shouldn'ts" are more likely related to waste (I know I've got something at home), amount (if i get that main, I won't have space for desert) or cost (I really, really should not visit that cheese stall because I always spend more than I intend to). "I really shouldn't" isn't necessarily related to how we look to others. I really shouldn't isn't necessarily a (self)judgment, but can be a statement of practicality.

But like you, I grew up with food as something communal and joyful. We like to eat, we like to share food, meals are a family thing. I bake when stressed, i like giving food, I go to my parents with homemade marmalade and come back with crab stock.

That's a very different "I shouldn't," for sure. And I'm so glad you've never felt guilty about food. I have, but I can usually recognize the thought as Not Mine, at which point I promptly eat whatever it was I was feeling guilty about (on one occasion, I thought, "I want popcorn AND ice cream," then thought, "You can't have BOTH," then thought a little more, went home, told my sister about it, and we had both.).

I bake when stressed too! I've been baking so many kinds of cookies for the past month and a half, it's hilarious.

I just--I hate guilt and shame, they're not good emotions and they're not anything I want people feeling over food of all things, you know?

I love red meat and I ALWAYS get desert if there's an option. And when I've got a waiter or waitress in my age range? I feel fucking guilty as hell. I'm fine when I'm with my friends - Nobody judges anyone except to go "Come on, you know you want pancakes - you've been talking about them for 2 days" or "Get fries. YOU ALWAYS STEAL MINE!" But if its just me and a waiter/waitress within ten years of me? OMG THE SHAME. Body issues. I can have so many of them.

For me, its all about trying to stick with those amazing people who make me feel comfortable. Or turning it into a "fuck you jerkoff, I'll eat what I want - how dare you judge me with your eyes." It's in my head though. My sister was heavy growing up - I was thin, and my father was a fucking asshole about food whenever he was around - which was rarely. It rubbed off and then I was the victim of a category 4 hurricane when I was a senior in high school and was stuck unable to eat anything but restaurant food for an entire year because we had no kitchen (because we had no house). So I gained my freshman fifteeen out of stress/pain eating before I got to college. And then I got chronically ill and clinically depressed and the freshman fifteen and lept to from 135 to 180 in less than 3 years. Then everyone had something to say about my weight. I'm back down to 165 - being happy again has helped with the weight loss- but it is still 10 pounds over the ideal weight for my Body Mass Index so people keep talking. IDK, my father saying shit like "You're pretty but if you could lose 20 pounds you'd be gorgeous again" sorta gets to you, you know? I dont know what the solution is.

Edited 2010-04-01 09:30 (UTC)

I wish we didn't even need to encourage each other, almost. You know what I mean? That it wasn't necessary.

I agree that anger and sticking to the people who don't do this are the best solutions. BMI is a fucking stupid measurement of anything, as is ideal weight--human bodies are so different, there are so many variables to how we're put together that 10 pounds is absolutely nothing, in the greater scheme of things. But I know you know that--it's the part where we have to apply it to ourselves that makes it difficult. And having your father say shit like that certainly doesn't help.

I don't know what to tell you except that there is a way to develop your own self-image and hold on to it despite people being assholes. Beauty isn't about weight. It really, really, really isn't. No matter what people like to claim. And the people who do judge? Their own issues are often through the roof. Even if they never talk about them and pretend they don't exist.

*throws confetti*

I'm very lucky because my circle of female friends, with whom I am likely to eat as a social activity, don't do this. We can bring each other home-baked goods when we visit AND cheer each other on if we're dieting. IT'S LIKE A MIRACLE. But I have experienced it many times before.

As I'm sure you know, this is the part that really resonated with me:

This is about judging someone else based on what they're eating or feeling like you're failing at something because you're on a diet or because you're not on a diet

It's similar to how I sometimes feel when I read political blogs. I'm not a bad feminist because I get my eyebrows shaped and I'm not betraying my fat sisters if I decide to drop a few pounds. We get enough shit from everyone else, we can't cut each other a break?

Yes, my female friends are mostly like that too. Thankfully. The saddest part, though, is when they get affected by their environments, like this girl who started to work at my old job, and after three months, she sounded just like the rest. Brainwashing at its finest.

And I just wish people would learn the fine line between discussing a tendency they find problematic (waxing, just as an example) and saying people who do it are dumb/bad feminists/etc. The distinction is pretty fucking crucial. We get enough shame and guilt from the world around us as it is.

I'm lucky because the people I eat out with never do this. In fact, until I read this, I didn't know that non-family members did do this. But I grew up with my dad telling me not to eat cake/chocolate/biscuits/whatever because I'd get fat and in our home there was no other option except 'unhealthy' food to snack on (my parents didn't start buying fruit until I was about 16 and begged them for it) so my choices were eat the food my dad was making me feel guilty about or... don't eat anything. I went for the don't eat anything option and ended up with an eating disorder at eight and then again at fifteen.

So uh, yes, hi, I support this post!

I am so HORRIFIED by the idea that family members would do this! *hugs you* You're not the only one in the comments to mention that, which is just, oh, darling, that's awful. And it really is that affecting, telling people not to eat things or making them feel guilty about doing it or just---guilt and shame are such insidious emotions, fuck.

♥

ha. i'm sitting here after dinner. my mum is staying for a couple of nights. and i had to interrupt her during dinner and say 'no actually he does NOT HAVE to eat everything on his plate' and also 'yes she CAN have another potato if she thinks she would like one' because omg she's NOT going to transfer her food crap onto my CHILDREN!*

(*i hope... meep?)

Ahaha, my grandmother is great but she has moments of WTF too--at my cousin's birthday party, I'd grabbed a pretty large portion as I had just started to be able to eat normally again after being sick, and she of course said, "That's quite a lot of food," at which point my cousin said, "And she hasn't eaten properly in WEEKS, leave her alone." Thankfully.

Huh. I'm lucky enough that this never really happens to me. I know that my friends want to lose weight (we used to do wii fit once a week) but they're all big on exercise rather than dieting. with the wii fit thing though, its such an environment of love and support though. We cheer when ppl lose weight and make up ridiculous excuses when they don't. I'm just ridiculously lucky I think.

I'd say you have a healthy outlook and a group of healthy friends, and that's awesome. *grins* It's good to hear that there are a number of people who don't have this happen on a regular basis, it's very heartening. There are just enough hard things for women for us to add more guilt and shame to it, you know?

Yes to all of this. I LOATHE when someone comments on what I'm eating. Where I work now, I have honestly never been around so many people who comment so much about what I'm eating for lunch. This is why I eat at my desk every day instead of in the breakroom. As much as I disliked and didn't get along with the girls I worked with at my old job, I will say this about them, we ate lunch together basically every day, and neither of them ever commented on what the others ate. I kinda miss that.

Luckily, my group of friends isn't judgey like that. And that includes my best friend who's been battling anorexia for 10 years, because she's self aware enough to know that her issues with food are HERS and she doesn't dump them on other people.

I find it completely baffling! Why would you care about my food? EAT YOUR OWN AND BE HAPPY. And if you're not happy about it, eat something else! Please. There was a girl on the non-carbohydrates diet who spent every lunch that I brought pasta talking about the evils of carbs and how they made you hungry all the time. I sort of felt like she was going to jump me and steal my lasagna.

And that includes my best friend who's been battling anorexia for 10 years, because she's self aware enough to know that her issues with food are HERS and she doesn't dump them on other people. That's VERY self aware of her, and very impressive. She must have worked hard to be able to do that. ♥

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I don't know that I'd call it lucky, more awesome. And healthy. *grins* And there's a huge difference between being aware of what you eat and feeling guilty/shaming others about it, right? It IS immensely valuable to have friends who talk about how good the food is instead of whether or not they should be eating it or however many calories it has--food should be a joy, I think. If you have a medical condition that makes you have to think about what you eat, that shouldn't prevent you from thinking about food itself with love (as much as you may not love what your disease makes you do). And it sounds like your mom was able to do that, which is awesome.

i love food so much. you have probably noticed. i try to eat foods that make me feel good - normally this is healthy good food that makes my body feel good, but sometimes it is cookies or a bag of chips or an entire pan of brownies because goddamn, my emotions/pms/whatever really need that boost. everything in moderation! haters to the left!

Nah, I thought you were sending me recipes because you liked the pretty pictures...or something. Except you typed half of them up. ♥

Everything in moderation indeed! I could not agree more. As you know, I sometimes have to be careful about what I eat lest I end up in amazing pain, but sometimes I say fuck it to that as well, because it feels MORE necessary to eat the chocolate. *nods*

♥

Oh, dude, seriously. How are you so eloquent?

I'm lucky, I guess. My friends are almost all curvy girls or guys who - while being built like rakes themselves, I swear - don't really seem to care about a girls' figure. (Okay, one of my skinny-ass guy friends once called me fat. Another skinny-ass guy friend called him the hell out on it, when he couldn't figure out why I was glaring and refused to talk to him for the rest of the night. But he apologised, and it wasn't that he meant to be mean - he just didn't think before he opened his mouth, which is a feature of him, actually, but he'd never, ever hurt you or do it on purpose, y'know? I chewed him out for a bit though, and he's never been that stupid again, so at least there's that?) We maybe occasionally moan that we shouldn't eat blah blah blah, but we always try talking each other out of that kind of talk.

On the other hand, my dad's family were always of the, just eat what you want, don't make yourself sick, philosophy, whereas my mother and her family were more, clear your plate, and everything that came with that - clear it, and get a sweetie. Clear it, or it's rude. Etc etc. I still feel conflicted about that, and even though I try to only eat till I'm full, often - unless I'm really not enjoying it - I'll fill myself to bursting, and still feel bad when I don't finish it, especially when my dad cooked it. Even if he didn't even finish his plate. >.<.

Um. I don't mean to make that all, woe is me. I agree with what you say, I do, and I really do feel lucky in that my current environments don't judge me for what I eat. (In fact, I think my dad's family are currently trying to feed me up. Which is silly.) So maybe there is progress happening out there?

I mean, I like to think so. :)

I don't think it makes a difference what size you are--as

bexless and others have pointed out in the past, there's a certain amount of "If you diet, you're against us" going on in the Fat Acceptance movement, which is really sad, considering that it's a group that is ostracized that then judges others. I don't know. I'm glad you and your friends mostly don't do that--could you try just skipping that part of the conversation? Like, when you're going to eat and someone starts it, someone else can just go "We don't need to do that with each other, right? We don't need to have this conversation." Or something. Because even the shouldn'ts that are followed by support do weird things to us. Like you say, it's a thing we say because we expect support to follow, and if we just skip the whole thing and focus on food as a GOOD thing, maybe?

And I certainly do think there's progress going on, yes. ♥

I think that would be a good idea. :)

♥♥♥

heeheehee mercedes lackey

I AM NOT JUDGING

You may judge, if you like. *shrugs*

nooope. I read The Black Gryphon in seventh grade and was very sad when I couldn't find the next book in the trilogy in any library, but I could find the third book ahaha.

I mean, I didn't have anything to add to what you said in your post besides \m/ as usual your meta posts are very intelligent.

The second one isn't very good! The first one was the best one. I, uh, own a lot of her books, they're my reread when I want LOLTERRIBLE stories about happy endings and magic solving everything, etc.

Thanks!

I totally agree, and it's so fantastic for you to get us all thinking a bit about this -- not only about how we view food but how we might end up framing it for other women in our lives.

I volunteer, study and work in the food movement and as much as food security is about eating local, eating sustainably, etc. it's also about eating healthy and nutritious. Yes, a huge part of our relationship to food as women is due to the media and cultural ideas about how we are supposed to look and act. But I think a bit part of it too is the corporate, big-business fast food industry and how our cities are so often designed so that we have to drive everywhere, and when we drive we end up in at malls/strip malls where the only options for food are big chain stores. It is their JOB to convince us we should be eating (often craving) their food, their trans fats, their salts, their zero-nutritional-value potatoes shipped from hundreds of thousands of miles away.

In my city, I'm involved with a lot of really awesome groups that run farmers' markets, community kitchens, and drop-in meal centres. Every day I hear people say how good it makes them feel to plant a seed and pick a fresh tomato from their garden, how good it feels (and smells!) to bustle around a kitchen full of people laughing and chopping and cooking, how amazing it is to sit down around the table, kids running underfoot, grandparents telling stories, and eat that food together.

These are the things that the fast food industry (and a lot of the companies selling frozen meals in grocery stores) tries to make us forget, but it won't work. Food in so many other cultures--and in our own, not that long ago--is about sharing, cooking and eating. This is why I'm optimistic that we can all start doing these things more. My girlfriends and I spend one afternoon every few weeks cooking up a bunch of soups and things (usually recipes we've never tried) and enjoy it together -- some of us are on weight watchers, some of us are vegan, whatever -- we can all enjoy cooking and eating and having leftovers. :)

Whoops, sorry for the small essay. But I just wanted to say yes, THAT and also that there are so many ways in our lives and in our society to bring back the fun and the community of food!

Your essay is AT LEAST as good as my entry, if not better, so thank you for that. ♥ You're right: the ultimate key is the enjoyment, the love, the pleasure and togetherness we can get out of it. It doesn't matter whether you're making chocolate cake or lentil soup: the enjoyment is the important part. ♥

LENTIL SOUP AND CHOCOLATE CAKE I MEAN WHAT MMMM

And yes yes yes :D Sorry for my ramble, so glad there are people like you who help make food healthier and happier for everyone else!

This, yes. I'm thankful that most of the friends I usually hang out with don't feel the need for "I shouldn't..." statements. People making negative comments about what's on other people's plates is something I can't understand at all.

I was actually thinking about this some two weeks ago when a friend asked me if I was coming to eat lunch with them and then before I could answer she jokingly continued with "Sorry, I forgot you live on coffee and air". I could tell she didn't mean any harm by it, but I realised that my best friend often uses statements like that with less sincerely joking tones and guilts me about not eating more. There has been times when I've eaten way more than I wanted to just so I wouldn't be the cause of her getting self-conscious about eating more than I do. (Theoretically I know her issues are her own and I can't help my small appetite, but at the same time I'm protective and want to keep her from hurt.)

Other thing I can't understand are eating disorder speculations. They're stressful, coming from family or friends, especially when I'm so clear about loving food and being comfortable with the any shape my body takes.

Gosh, sorry, I didn't mean to ramble. Anyway, thanks for this post. ♥

Oh, that's hard. Especially when it's someone you care about that much. I don't know, maybe cook together? Talk about what you like about the food? God, I hate that women do this to themselves (society does it to them, I don't mean it's their fault, you know what I mean), it's just really sad.

I'm of two minds about this. Eating disorder speculations can be incredibly strange and hurtful (when I had braces and lived on mashed potatoes for two months of the most intense treatment, people definitely asked me about it), but at the same time I had a friend with an eating disorder, and so it's hard to look away now when you see the possible signs, you know? Because there are questions I should have asked, then. Like, why was she losing hair, why was she eating less, why was she--you know. But if you're clear about loving food and if you sit your family down and have the conversation about the fact that it's hard for you when they do that, maybe? I don't know. (Sorry about the unsolicited advice, I'm very good at doing that.)

Ramble all you like! I talked enough in return. ♥

Thankfully she's slowly working on losing her worst worries about food so she hasn't made any comments in a while. If it comes up later, we'll talk about it. We actually try to cook as often as possible when she comes over, a habit formed when I wanted to make sure she ate something without pressuring her, and it's good. It's fun like food is supposed to be.

Oh, I get that. I think what bothers me about the times I've heard speculations about my eating habits is how they were dealt with, the gossip-y nature of them. If a friend or my family had just come up and had an honest conversation with me, I would have appreciated their concern, really. Sincere concern about someone's well-being is a whole another deal and I think it's part of caring about someone, the way you (general you) keep an eye out for possible worries and such.

No need for apologizing, the advice is appreciated. :) If the subject comes up again with my family, I'll tell them that I don't worry about my weight so they shouldn't either, and that comments about the amount or the type of food I eat are only making me self-conscious about it. Also, maybe they could buy fruit more often because we never have any apples when I get a craving. *g*

Oh man - THIS x1000. Because really, NOTHING makes me angrier than when I'm flipping through my GoogleReader and there will be this awesome recipe posted on one of the food-blogs that I follow, with the author disclaiming about how many rounds on the treadmill she'll have to do in order to "work off" eating that particular food item. Because EVERY TIME I see that, I see all of those jackasses who taunted my poor sister in grade school because of her weight. No matter how joyfully accepting of food and weight that my family and her friends were (and we really were, for the most part) it was always the negative comments that stuck with her the most. S was just SO MUCH more than anything related to her size and the fact that people can't understand that just makes me want to punch people in the face. :-/

The idea that you have to EARN eating certain foods is so harmful and idiotic and sad. I've seen that too, when I'm out with certain friends or reading certain blogs or what-have-you. I mean, talk about taking all the enjoyment out of eating cake or chocolate or something else you really really want. SO SAD.

And that's--god. Your sister. ASSHOLES, the lot of them.

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