on language fail and accountability

[harborshore]

Look. I've been seeing an argument made in a lot of places about the recent (and the not-so-recent) language fail in bandom, and I've been talking about it in a number of other people's journals, and I'm just—



It's not hard not to use slurs. It's not. That's not about policing language, that's a bare minimum of decency. Seriously. To imply that it's too high of a standard to hold MCR to is frankly insulting to them. It's not about expecting them to be super feminist. It's about not using harmful words that are more or less widely acknowledged as such (the fact that transphobic words are less well-known is a serious problem, but it doesn't mean that the fact that the word is hugely problematic is any less so because there's a chance they previously didn't know). Can we not imply or flat-out say that men are unable to do this? Particularly not dudes who previously have shown themselves as somewhat aware of problematic things in the scene?





And yeah, Z's recent interview was also hugely problematic. Of course it was. It's so emblematic of the way women are taught that they have to be the right kind of woman to make it, which I imagine is amplified by what is a very sexist music scene, and it makes me so goddamn sad to see it here too. Dammit, Z. I've emailed The Like pointing out that the way to have a productive discussion about issues like "women in music," which, it sounded like some of the interview was about that, is really really not to lash out at other female musicians for the way they dress, using a slur while doing so. That's harsh and harmful and I'm not down with that.





But fandom, fandom, if you're going to hold Z accountable for that (and I'm really not telling you not to!), then please refrain from making excuses for the boys. I'm tired of seeing Vicky-T yelled at every time she does anything at all, whereas Gabe is regularly offensive (yes, I find him endearing too, but seriously) and no one really talks about it, or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before, like somehow he doesn't make his own decisions about what he says or how he markets his album. Or anything. Everyone should be held accountable, otherwise you're judging a woman a million times more harshly than you're judging the men, and that's not really feminist either, hmm? The scene can be such a sexist place, but we have to talk about the fact that it is, HOW it is sexist, and what can be done about it, or nothing will ever change. It doesn't mean you can't continue to love your favorites--after all, I still very much love The Like--it just means that sometimes we have to talk about the fact that they're not perfect.

Comments

[kickingrad.livejournal.com]

ALL OF THE YESES ARE FOR YOU. ALL OF THEM. This is exactly the point I was trying to formulate.

[blindmouse.livejournal.com]

or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before

That happens?

This is a very good post! I agree with it! All the word choices floating about interviews are still making me sad. Not every environment is as linguistically hung up as this corner of the internet, I acknowledge, but you do know when you're using one of the really loaded ones, I think.

[almostblue.livejournal.com]

I love you.

Just sayin'.

[sullen-hearts.livejournal.com]

Yes. Exactly.

I have found Gabe racistly offensive the one time I met him. That was *not* good times.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Yes it does! I read a blog post a couple of months ago that blamed MCR's influx of fail on Lyn-Z and MSI and their fuck-everything ethos. And then I had to go hit a wall a couple of times. Now, I have my own problems with the latter band (I don't actually think it's okay to say anything in the pursuit of shocking your audience), but dude, Gerard is a big boy, he can take responsibility for his own use of girl-bashing slurs.

You do! Gerard should know better, Z should know better, Frank should know better. (I'm willing to make allowances for Ryan at 17, because teenagers are teenagers.) But I'm not down with the fact that there is more talk about Z's fail than about MCR's, because double standards piss me off. Feminism means women have the right to fail too, you know? And we'll call them out on it, but we will damn well call the men out on it too.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I GET MAD YOU KNOW HOW IT GOES. in sum: slurs are easy not to use and double standards are stupid. GRRR.

ETA: most importantly, not talking about it has never been a great way to get anything done when it comes to awareness or social justice or changing the way we use language or the way we treat each other. you know.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

&you;

Yeah, once I get mad enough I have to say something, you know how it goes.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

&YOU; i was getting antsy and having trouble thinking about Other Things.

[jubella.livejournal.com]

This is what I've been trying to say for the past week or two! Thank you for putting it into a much more structured, coherent, and eloquent way. ♥

[giddy-london.livejournal.com]

What I find interesting (and by interesting I mean infuriating) is that not only do fans judge women like Z or Lyn-Z or Vicky-T more harshly than their male counterparts, but fans judge other female fans more harshly than the dudes in the bands with regard to faily language. The same fans who jump all over other fans for using racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic language are the very same people who willfully ignore the same language when used by someone like Frank or Gerard. So do a penis and privilege give these guys a pass, or is problematic language okay because then the fans are "just compartmentalizing"? Either way, it's bullshit, and so much of the reason I was and continue to be frustrated with this fandom.

[disarm-d.livejournal.com]

I saw more discussion about Amanda Palmer's fail than I ever did about MCR, even though there's 1000% more squee about anything MRC does (so it's not that people are just more aware of what AP's up to). It's not that I don't think people should call out women, but I'm sick of reading about the various things that women have done wrong when there's not a similar level of discussion about men.

Panic's got the word "whore" in their song. It's not like anyone's boycotting Fever. If you squint and remove anything problematic, Z's vaguely saying that women should be able to make music without selling sex. Vaguely...

(Plus -- and I probably shouldn't even open up this can of worms, but it's early in the morning so whatever -- I don't think that the expressions of female sexuality in the music industry are universally empowered. I think that some women have control over their image and use their sexuality to do what THEY want -- Gaga being an excellent example. And then I think of Michelle Branch's rant about how she's sick of having to suck record exec dick to get her song played on the radio. There's a lot that's wrong with the music industry. While obviously women should be allowed to wear whatever they want and express their sexuality in whatever way they're comfortable with, I think that there can be a discussion on the oversexualization of music.)

[modillian.livejournal.com]

or for that matter seeing Lyn-Z blamed for the fact that Gerard is now apparently less feminist than before
:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NO.


Man. I've missed what's happening. But you've got the right idea and I agree with you. We've gotta SPEAK UP about it.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Oh, THAT'S great. Not. UGH.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Double standards have a way of catapulting me straight into blind fury: this post would have been way less coherent had it been made a couple of days ago. ♥

[sullen-hearts.livejournal.com]

He's a douche.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I mean, this is obviously a societal problem that goes way beyond this scene. So that's not surprising. But yes, I hear you--we judge each other (society sucks that way, making us watch each other so closely for the tiniest mistakes) while we indulge the men. WTF, world. Analogy: "I've met the GREATEST guy. He calls me when he says he will, he compliments me, he doesn't blow me off..." which are like basic standards for normal friendship. AND YET. I think it's a combination of the penis+privilege factor and the fact that people would rather come to fandom for happy thoughts. But then they ought to ignore every piece of fail, no?

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm aware. I haven't met him, but I'm aware. Sorry he was a douche to you (or in your vicinity), though. >:(

[sullen-hearts.livejournal.com]

Some people (not saying you, at all) are too ready to excuse him, and I find that pretty fucking horrible. I've met Beckett and found him to be a gentlemen of the highest order, a completely lovely human being who thinks *carefully* about what he says and who he says it to. Gabe is one of his BFFs and I do NOT get that, I really dislike it. Similarly, Travis McCoy is one of Gabe's BFFs, and there are a few other black guys who Gabe must know, and Gabe *himself* is an immigrant, and yet he was still a racist douche and I get so fucking angry :/

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

It's not that I don't think people should call out women, but I'm sick of reading about the various things that women have done wrong when there's not a similar level of discussion about men.

Oh my god, yes. That's basically the reason I wrote this post. The double standards infuriate me. A LOT. Especially because in MCR's case, it's been going on for a while, and the discussion has been virtually NONEXISTENT. I mean, even back when Frank was making domestic violence jokes on Twitter, no one was saying anything at all, or if they did, it was related to asshole!Frank which was of course a great joke. And Leathermouth's lyrics are funny. Or something.

(Dude, that is a can of worms that should be opened. I actually really agree--I think Z chose the WORST way to say it, but it's certainly a discussion that ought to be had. You're right--Gaga is a good example of that, whereas there are several examples of really uncomfortable ways that other women in music have been made to conform to certain images.)

[languisity.livejournal.com]

You know, I have to wonder, with the way fandom is, how many people want to say something but hide it behind flock. I've had a few friends make locked posts with seventy million disclaimers so as not to rock the boat or harsh squee. So, at the end of the day, all you're left with are the diehard "they can do nothing wrong" fans who are the loudest. I think there's a definite issue with how female musicians are treated in comparison to their male counterparts, but there's also something to be said for what happens to the fans who try to call attention to the fucked up things the dudes do on a regular basis. People aren't going to talk much if they know they will be shouted down. Couple that with the fact that women tend to be easy targets (acknowledging the disparity between callouts, not saying many of aren't deserved), and the whole thing is just one huge reinforcement of misogyny.


I can't believe people are essentially arguing how hard it is not to use slurs, though? Way to insult people's intelligence, guys.

[desfinado.livejournal.com]

Yes!!! I am very on board with dialogue, and of staying aware of who we hold accountable for things and who we don't and WHY. Thanks for getting us thinking!

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

Yes, this.

I think the fact that these problems go so much deeper and are so much more entrenched than their expression in fandom is a big part of the reason why fandom fails so hard at dealing with them. Because it's all so ugly and scary and dreadful, you know? and once you start thinking about the implications, quite a lot of things become less shiny and enjoyable. But that's also the reason it's so vitally important that fandom talk about them and try to deal with them. Fandom doesn't exist in a vacuum; the things that cause hurt in the rest of the world also cause hurt here.

*hugs*

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

One of the character Twitters (confirmed as Gerard's) called a female fan a cunt on Twitter (completely unprovoked, not that that fucking matters), another one said something about the "first slut at the orgy," and the character on roller skates in the video is called "Ladyboy," which is a transphobic slur. Also, Frank Iero has made a number of spectacularly unfunny sexist jokes on Twitter in the past that have since been removed (but if one goes through tothetune, they're there still, I just don't have the links).

It's not, but neither is judging her more harshly than the aforementioned dudes in the fandom--it's not like "whore" isn't in one of Panic's songs, for instance, and something I've never seen discussed is the live performance of "Sins..." where the (mostly female) audience yells the word back at them. We ought to be able to call Z out and also call the rest of them out while we're talking about faily language--she isn't MORE supposed to think about what she says or does than the boys are. Because that's really not feminist either.

Of course not! Hi! :)

[almostblue.livejournal.com]

I just really enjoy how you always manage to sum up everything in my brain, and sound so calm and rational while doing so. It's a true talent, bb.

[mourning-night.livejournal.com]

I'm curious to know which scene you're refering to the lyrics video, if you don't mind my asking.