no, israel

[harborshore]

You do not attack an aid ship on international waters. You do not. That is only permissible under wartime maritime law or when you have been directly attacked. This was an aid ship and it was not going to Israel.

The information varies on what happened after that and whose fault anything was, but the consensus is this: 19 aid workers are dead, more injured. But all of that happened after boarding. You do not attack an aid ship on international waters.

ETA: Official death toll now says nine dead. Not as bad, but still fairly awful.

ETA 2: As this post puts it, the Israeli military-political complex is a far more useful term for the force behind the massacre of aid workers yesterday than the name of the nation Israel. The longer term presents a useful distinction between Israel the country, which it is possible to love even if you don't actually support this action, as it is possible to love other countries whose leadership perpetrates horrendous acts. It's a fairly important distinction.

Comments

[iamsupernova.livejournal.com]

I don't even know what to believe anymore. I don't believe the Israeli army is perfect and flawless (as my Jewish high school wanted me to believe) and I don't believe they're the bad guys either. I don't know how to deal with news stories like this, because there is no way for me to know what's true and what's confused facts and what's made up.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I'm not making any kind of claim about the Israeli army here; I'm perfectly aware that we don't know everything yet. But the fact remains that these were aid ships and they were boarded on international waters--this has been verified and is not something Israel is contesting, instead, they are saying they extended their security zones 68 miles into international waters--according to international maritime law, that is not allowed. International waters are free for a reason, the only exception to this are pirates (which these ships were not), and slavers, and in one particular case a torturer was apprehended. The seas are to be free.

[iamsupernova.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know. This is just another thing on top of other questionable acts I've seen reported over the years. It sticks in the back of my brain. It makes me uncomfortable.

Just saw this on tumblr, agree wholeheartedly.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine how hard this must be for people who love the country of Israel (and I understand why people do--it's beautiful). It feels like there's a mentality in the Israeli government and amongst some of the population that there is no right except ours, and that's just--it doesn't work. It leads to things like this.

[iamsupernova.livejournal.com]

I think it comes of having such a long cultural history of being crushed under someone else's boot heel - now that Israel has power and support, they're determined not to let it happen again. It's a scary thing, to try and make sure the Holocaust never happens to you again, and suddenly it seems like you're doing that to another people.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I can see how it happens, yes. I've always argued against the idea that a people who have been subjected to horrifying things should be a better people as a result, because that is hardly fair, but they still have to be a people who live in the world. And the responsibilities of a nation have to include working with existing international law. "No right but our right" doesn't work if we're to keep the world from having another Holocaust, if that makes sense.

[iamsupernova.livejournal.com]

I think that's definitely true of individuals - all the Holocaust survivors I've met have been amazing people, they've just been so clearly exceptional people. But when power is involved in the equation, things can go really bad.

I've never heard the phrase "no right but our right" as something Israel owns up to. Obviously the way they do things exemplifies that, but I've never seen it in such blatant terms before. I'm used to thinking of them as being absolutely unswayable when they think they're right - which, I suppose, are the only occasions we hear about. We don't hear the agonized conversations about whether to attack a mosque because they know Hamas is keeping weapons there, but they also know how badly that situation will be seen. But it happens.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Well, traumatizing experiences can certainly work that way--I'm just saying it shouldn't be required of them, you know? If they are amazing people after what they went through, that's--well, it's completely humbling and amazing, but they have just as much right as anyone else to be bastards. If that makes sense. I've just never liked the implication that trauma victims SHOULD become bettered by their experiences, and I've seen that accusation leveled against Israel before, that they should know better because of the Holocaust. We should all know better because of the Holocaust. You know what I mean.

I was just trying to summarize their stance on this, what the idea of going so flagrantly against international law can be. It IS blatant, isn't it?

[iamsupernova.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood before. I thought you meant you figured the Israeli government would be handling this situation better due to past experiences - my mistake.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

No worries at all! This is a really complicated discussion (it took me half an hour to write what is a very very short entry because I was rephrasing things a lot)--I added an ETA that might interest you. ♥

[oddishly.livejournal.com]

I saw that this morning and have been raging all day.

Wait, hang on. It's nineteen now?

[oddishly.livejournal.com]

NINETEEN PEOPLE DEAD. I can't even -- my god.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I know. I know. I think the numbers are right--it's the Israeli numbers. I hope they're not low. God.

[jubella.livejournal.com]

I watched a video about this this morning, and just. Israel has this invincible mentality that lets them think they can get away with certain things. It's just sad.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

It's--"no right except our right," or something. It's horrifying and in this case really stupid--there is no way to make this match up to any existing laws, because it doesn't. They were aid workers. On international waters.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes it is.

[antihysteric.livejournal.com]

Oh my god. I don't even -- an aid ship, really? Just -- no, oh my god.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Yes. An aid ship. On international waters.

[mrsquizzical.livejournal.com]

:(((((((((

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I know. God.

[x_dark_siren_x]

I love how there is always a difference between the initial figures, the official figures, and the other ones. I love how the official ones are always, always less. *despairs*

I'm with you. And it just. I don't understand why people aren't calling them over it. I'm sorry, but shit like this - less than this started world wars. I'm not saying I want that to happen again - dear God, no, that's the last thing I want - but there were consequences then. And people knew that. Now what?

I just. I just want things like this to stop happening.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

But they are calling them out on it! Or some of them are, at any rate. The Security Council condemned the action and called for an end to the blockade, and the US didn't veto it (!), even if they themselves didn't call for an end to the blockade (they did say it should be lessened). And the EU might actually do something this time, etc. Many many governments have said things already. People ARE. No consequences yet--well, the US thing counts as a consequence. And the one they can't fix--the bad PR. Can't fix it. That's a consequence--and a bad one. The Turkey relations (the one Muslim ally) will go sour. Etc.