questions to ask yourself re: your female characters

[harborshore]

I'm getting a little tired, is the thing. Because I'm not fond of reading fic and being blindsided by the only woman appearing being an evil doctor or a shrewish girlfriend or, for that matter, the understanding girlfriend who gets out of the picture in order to further the love of our two heroes. Or the only girl dying. Or--you know. (Note: none of these examples are taken from a specific story. That's actually part of the problem--they're tropes. And I keep seeing them and many others and I'm so, so tired.)

I realize that it's hard. I realize our culture premiers the Stories of white dudes. I realize fandom is prone to writing m/m, and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm not asking for everyone to start writing femmeslash, no matter how happy that would make me. No, I'm asking for something much smaller.

As usual, I'm fine with being disagreed with: these are my opinions and I'm definitely wrong sometimes. I would ask that discussion is polite and respectful, with all that that implies.



1. Are there any? Any at all?

And I'm not just talking about the main characters--if you're writing Bob/Brian or Brendon/Spencer or Pete/Patrick or Frank/Gerard, I realize that unless you're writing genderswap, they'll be dudes. But it's worth it to look at the surrounding cast and see if all of them are men. Because the world doesn't actually look like that. Truth: I've had people tell me they stay away from stories about women because fandom is their escape from sexism. The thing is, erasure is nothing like enlightenment.

2. Are they the villains?

Believe it or not, if a story has, say, twelve characters, and the two women that appear are both evil/mean/careerist moms who don't care about their kid/abusive/or what have you, that looks a little weird. And it's really hard to read without flinching.

3. Are they the catalyst for the relationship of the two dudes?

This one, hmm. It's about what their purpose is in the story. I'm not saying the best friend of one of the guys can't go, "Call him, idiot," but there's a fine line between helping out a friend and existing solely to get the guys together. It's (in my head) especially problematic if they're dating one of the dudes already and then go, "No, I love you, of course it's okay for you to date him too." Meanwhile they're not interested in the second guy romantically, they're not portrayed as polyamorous, and their relationship with their boyfriend in question is largely absent from the story. That--it's not fair to them. It's fairly possible to deal with existing girlfriends in a way that doesn't suck, promise. And I'm not talking about OT3s, here, I'm talking about two relationships that intersect in a way that makes the woman unimportant.

4. Are they Bad Mothers?

Someone very smart once said to me that if a story explicitly tells us that it's fine for women to not want children but implicitly tells us that anyone who doesn't want a child is a bad person, then the explicit stuff matters less, because what we're shown is that people should want children. Note that I don't think that it's necessarily bad to write about a woman who doesn't want children or who is an actual bad parent, but maybe make sure that's not just counterpointed with dudes who want children and who are good parents?

5. Are they damsels in distress? Do they exist to provide the hero with an object to rescue? Do they have agency?

These ones should be self-explanatory: it's about whether the women can act instead of being acted upon, it's about whether they have a story independent of the heroes.

6. Are they people?

Because you know what? Sometimes I get to a female character in a story and I don't feel like I'm reading about a person, I'm reading about a caricature. There's the Scene Girl, there's the Dumb Blond, there's the Evil and Controlling Mom, there's the girl who exists to be supportive...so ask yourself, are they people?

I'm not saying this is a complete list (feel free to add more in comments), and it's possible I'll add others later when I think of them. Just, please, write me some women that don't make me flinch.

Comments

[extemporally.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I got a little tired, you know how it is. ♥

[anoneknewmoose.livejournal.com]

Yes. Definitely bookmarking/reccing.

(Mm, checklists.)

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Thank you, my dear. ♥ I just--it got to a point where I kept tripping over endless variations on these (and others, I started writing the questions and then I had to STOP), and I couldn't not say anything.

[yan-tan-tether.livejournal.com]

Great post, and lots of food for thought here.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

That's good to hear--I'm glad it did what I wanted.

[redbrickrose.livejournal.com]

Thank you. This is an excellent list.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I probably could have kept going, but hey. And I'm glad it said something.

[crowgirl13.livejournal.com]

I think this is a great list, and I particularly appreciate this: But it's worth it to look at the surrounding cast and see if all of them are men. Because the world doesn't actually look like that.Truth: I've had people tell me they stay away from stories about women because fandom is their escape from sexism. The thing is, erasure is nothing like enlightenment. I've had that same conversation with people about women in fic [or genderswap fic that addresses Woman's Issues], and it always makes me gape. Though...those speakers did state that escapism =/= enlightenment, that they didn't want their fic to be ~educational or deal with ~Issues.

This post prods at some thoughts I've had on Mary Sues too.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Though...those speakers did state that escapism =/= enlightenment, that they didn't want their fic to be ~educational or deal with ~Issues. Right, but that's sort of the point, isn't it? Including women in your fiction doesn't have to mean you must write about feminism. Women can just be people there, in your story, hanging out. And I know you agree, I just wanted to expand on it a little.

This post prods at some thoughts I've had on Mary Sues too. Yeah? Feel free to expand, that's what the post is for.

[torakowalski.livejournal.com]

I like this list, it's very, very true. The girl who exists to be supportive is a worry because while I try (but don't necessarily succeed) to avoid the other tropes, I know I've used that one because it doesn't seem negative, you know, even though of course it is because it takes away her right to be her own person.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I really like that about you, that you own up to doing things that might be problematic. (For that matter, I've written fic without women, dammit, and I was so pissed when I noticed.) The girl who exists to be supportive is definitely difficult, because you run the risk of on the one hand positing that two guys in love can't handle it without a helpful girl who knows about emotions, and, like you said, it takes away her right to be her own person. It's even worse when she's the girlfriend of one of them, sigh sigh sigh.

[nokomis305.livejournal.com]

Yes, this!

I think the worst offender is kind of the Super Understanding Girlfriend who just shoos her serious boyfriend off into the arms of the gay sex, because, what? That's not to say it can't be handled gracefully or anything, but the fact that it's become a TROPE is alarming to me. (In a lot of ways I actually prefer Magical Girlfriend/WIfe-less Verses, because at least then you can picture them happily having their own love affairs in the wild blue yonder. Sigh!)

But I wish that there were more bandom writers embracing the awesome girls we have, not least of which because some of them are my FAVORITES and I want to read about them.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

That's not to say it can't be handled gracefully or anything, but the fact that it's become a TROPE is alarming to me. (In a lot of ways I actually prefer Magical Girlfriend/WIfe-less Verses, because at least then you can picture them happily having their own love affairs in the wild blue yonder. Sigh!)

Right! Well, I hesitate to say I like it when the girlfriends are entirely out of the picture, but I get your point--at least there's no offensive breakup OR shooing-the-boys-into-each-others'-arms. And that way they're still people. Sometimes they all get romantically fulfilling solutions. I love AUs that do this, oh, like belladonnalin's (I think) Jamia/Lyn-Z AU where Lyn-Z and Gerard date before he gets together with Frank--but then the story turns to her falling for Jamia. WIN.

Yeah. No, seriously.

[nokomis305.livejournal.com]

I think the thing that annoys me the most is that the girls tend to get treated like doormats in that trope, and I'd personally rather just not see that. Why can't ALL writers manage to characterize everyone in their fic, not just boys? Which is the real issue for me there.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely. No doormats, please, it's enormously tiresome. I realize I possibly wasn't entirely clear--it's just that what happens when you write the girlfriends out is that often you end up with a story with no women at all, and that's also aggravating. In a different way.

Why can't ALL writers manage to characterize everyone in their fic, not just boys? Which is the real issue for me there. Right? It's actually NOT THAT HARD. *sulks*

[blindmouse.livejournal.com]

Well, I hesitate to say I like it when the girlfriends are entirely out of the picture

I actually do like this, but that's my RPF issues trumping my gender issues. It doesn't apply to Lindsey or Ashlee or Z, or anybody who's a fan-beloved figure, but wives and girlfriends who aren't public figures? I am completely comfortable writing them out of the narrative. I'm not fannish about these women, I don't love them, so I have no business appropriating them for my fic. (That's a pretty personal justification for writing RPF, but, you know.) I especially don't see a justification for including them in the story for the purpose of having them break up with or be broken up with by their RL partner, no matter how well it's done. That just ... feels kind of mean.

In general, obviously: Woot, this post ♥

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Oh, I was definitely thinking of Lindsey when I said it--it's, you know, not entirely uncommon (less so now) to write her out of canon-based Frank/Gerard stories. And yet I'm still happier with that than I am about divorce!fic--which happens a lot with Alicia, for instance, who IS a public figure, and it's not that I don't think divorce!fic should never be written, it's just that, yes, it's a trope, and she's usually not treated well in that scenario. The problem with writing the girlfriends out (and I agree with your non-public figures clause, in general,) is that then there are often no other women in the story, so then you're back at 1.

♥

[novembersmith.livejournal.com]

Your points, all so valid, and not just in fandom. Across the motherfucking board, sadly. It's always so disappointing to have an otherwise awesome show/fic/movie with all the as females one-dimensional plot devices. /o\

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Yes. I often find myself completely unable to keep watching, or having to make a lot of mental compromises in order to watch it and not cringe the whole time. I'm just not interested in Stories of White Dudes Only anymore, I can't do it.

[mrsquizzical.livejournal.com]

thanks for a great list.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

♥ I try.

[sinuous-curve.livejournal.com]

I agree so much with everything about this post.

What's so obnoxious about these tropes is that they can be written as such wonderfully interesting stories about complex women, but instead they're employed as a way to further the story of sons/husbands/boyfriends/male friends.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

♥

Right! And then when a good story of this kind is written, it's nearly impossible to keep them from falling into the traps set up by all the preceding bad ones. You know? And I'm just so tired of reading stories where the women are plot devices, I'm just so sick of it.

[softlyforgotten.livejournal.com]

Yes, oh my god. ♥ Thank you, this was what I needed to read. <3

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Right? Right. The frustration built to a point where I wrote this in about eight minutes flat, barely stopping to fix a comma. Seriously, it is not hard to do this right. It just isn't.

[impertinence.livejournal.com]

This is an AWESOME post.

I think my least favorite is the type of woman who's really popular, now, to include in media fandom slashfics - the woman who is a sounding board for one of the guys, and he likes her, but she's basically the author's voice in a really negative way that erases her as a person, and makes her just a mouthpiece talking about how gay the two guys are for each other. DNW.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

&you;

God, I hate that so much. It's especially obnoxious when she's the only girl in the story. And it happens even with things that get called OT3 fic, right, because you read it and mostly the girl is just a catalyst. Which pisses me off, because I love many OT3s, but I like my girls participating and not just making it happen for the guys. DNW indeed.

[almostblue.livejournal.com]

♥ ♥ ♥

You know my perspective on this one, bb! Viva la female revolucion!

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

INDEED. *plots* ♥ ♥ ♥

[x_dark_siren_x]

♥

Thank you. As ever, you're wonderful. (And I've had...practically no sleep. Want to be back on holiday, thanks.)

This icon is actually scarily relevant. :/

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Ha, yes it is. (Fannish osmosis taught me that one.) ♥

[delphinapterus.livejournal.com]

I agree with the list of questions. It helps simplfy some of the things I've been thinking about with regard to female characters. I really love fic with good female characters but I find it really a lot harder to find that fic with good male characters which makes sense I suppose given the fandom inclination toward male characters (I know I'm guilty of that myself and it's something I want to change).

I really like a lot of canon het ships and it bugs me no end when a wife/girlfriend does the understanding thing to get the slash couple together. I think there are ways to write that trope so the story is well executed but it's something that I think would also be very difficult to do. In some ways I'm much happier if it's a magically wifeless/girlfriendless universe than one where the wives/girlfriends are treated as either villians standing in the way of the True Slash Love or the helpful catalysts to get the Slash couple to realize their True Love. However, that type of universe bugs me a bit too but I'm not sure how to explain why it does.

Yet, what really annoys me, even more than the badly done characterizations of wives/girlfriends, are the accusations that to write a wife/girlfriend - especially one without much known canon - is just the writer projecting themselves. The accusations of projecting are something I've run across in both RPF fandoms (for ex. in bandom especially with regard to Jamia and Alicia) and FPF fandoms (for ex. Lisa from Supernatural). It's only with female characters. There are male characters who get written about who have just as little known canon but I've yet to come across accusations that writers writing those male characters are just projecting themselves onto the character. I think this is maybe another facet of the Mary Sue debate?

As a writer I'm always worried that I won't write female characters as well as they deserve but at the same time I find that I really struggle with the idea that I might be writing a "Mary Sue" instead of a well-rounded interesting female character. I guess I just have to hope that if I blunder my flist/betas will tell me.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the fandom inclination toward white male characters is fairly tiresome, I agree. The worst is when every secondary character in large ensemble fics is also a white dude. I mean, seriously?

However, that type of universe bugs me a bit too but I'm not sure how to explain why it does. I know what you mean--it bugs me because it's a form of erasure, especially because the end result often is a story without any women at all. But I hate the breakup/vilification fics so fucking much.

God, I know. Because no one ever wrote a basement!Gerard story that involved super!gorgeous Frank, right? Right.

As far as Mary Sues go, I mean, if you want to talk too-perfect-to-be-real characters, why isn't anyone complaining about certain portrayals of Spencer Smith? You know? But no, it's the women we complain about. I wouldn't worry much about whether you're writing Mary Sues--just apply the same principles as you do when writing male characters. Have them be normal, have them fuck up, have them be people.

[desfinado.livejournal.com]

Thank you for writing this. I'm happy about how many coherent and clear posts have arisen lately about how to be more respectful and anti-oppressive in our writing. Something we can all learn in light of the less sensitive fics that have been posted this past month!

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I just--it involves thinking. Right? Glancing over the story to look at who's in there and what they get to do, what they're like. And you're right, the discussions going on have been wonderful.

[sullen-hearts.livejournal.com]

I dunno if you read mine and Mango's BigBang, which is Mike Carden/Michael Guy Chislett/Naomi Chislett. Or if, indeed, you'd be interested. But we talked a lot about Naomi in that fic and how she is. She isn't a public figure, she's Michael's wife and isn't even particularly known for that - compared to, say, Jamia in MCR fandom. She seems adorable and I do know from personal experience that Michael is very protective of her but also not a douche about that.

But, yeah. We talked about it and I think we struck a nice balance. We know basically fuck all about her but she is in a relationship with her husband and then that expands to include Mike.

In the next part of this fic, there is more of just Mike/Naomi, which I think has changed the whole dynamic again, and she seems even more integral.

Thank you for making me think more, anyway.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

That's a tough dynamic, there. How did you resolve the issue of her being so much lesser known? Also, how did you negotiate the Christianity aspect of it?

And that was pretty much I wrote it, I mean, to make people think more. ♥

[sullen-hearts.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure we did negotiate it properly, her being lesser known. I think we both just got over the squick. I dunno.

As for the Xianity... the whole fic is sort of about religion (one of my major kinks...). I recommend it! simply_fic. It's about religion and Michael's faith and Mike's non faith and TAI falling apart and getting back together. I'm really proud of it, actually :) And it's also about love and how it goes around and is generally A Good Thing.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

Ah, see, I have religion issues, so I'm not sure I'm up for it--that's actually why I didn't read it in the first place. I'm sure it's good! Just, trust me, issues.

[sullen-hearts.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. I think we handled it sensitively - I was brought up in what could loosely be termed a cult, similar to how I imagine Hillson - but, like everyone, some of the religious guys were good and some were bad.

[harborshore.livejournal.com]

I don't doubt at all that you handled it well--it's just that my ex broke up with me because her family is Catholic. So the intersection of queeritude and Christianity is sensitive as fuck, personally.

[sullen-hearts.livejournal.com]

That makes perfect sense to me, that it's a painful and personal issue. I went off god way before I ever properly came out so it's never been an issue to me. As for that intersection, one of the first things I ever read in bandom was about Brendon's family dealing with him coming out, and I loved it. But that was almost that he was okay with it, while his family weren't. I would LOVE to read a story where Brendon or Michael or Gabe or whoever had to face uncomfortable truths about themselves while dealing with their religion in the face of that.